Joe
City-dweller
Posts: 170
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Post by Joe on Mar 15, 2022 15:28:37 GMT -7
Another parallel situation - in some parts of the world, people still use flint & steel to light fires. In most of the civilized world, this is an utterly foreign concept today. Some people couldn't light a fire with a road flare and 5 gallons of gas, much less flint & steel. I've seen people struggle just trying to light the road flare.
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Post by Black Hand on Mar 15, 2022 15:31:02 GMT -7
Another parallel situation - in some parts of the world, people still use flint & steel to light fires. In most of the civilized world, this is an utterly foreign concept today. Some people couldn't light a fire with a road flare and 5 gallons of gas, much less flint & steel. I've seen people struggle just trying to light the road flare.
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Post by brokennock on Mar 15, 2022 15:39:28 GMT -7
No, not yet. Not that I've read everything possible on the period. I have to admit, I seriously doubt it was a common practice, even amongst Eastern natives after contact and trade was established. I mean, what a step backwards if one has access to flint and steel. Even natives quickly adopted materials and techniques from whites when they saw an advantage, but,,, the same can not always be said of whites. I'm sure plenty of natives retained friction fire knowledge as a back up,, but how many accounts of white settlers and frontiersman suffering from lack of fire do we read about? I recall accounts of scouts, rangers, and other frontier folks going hungry for fear of discharging a firelock and possibly alerting enemies to their presence/location, but we see no evidence of whites learning to use a bow to take game. Maybe when one already harbors a prejudice that inhibits the likelihood of adopting another culture's method or equipment,,, it gets compounded when that method is a lot more difficult than what one is used to? Nock, You make a good point about the absurdity of Anglos not using bows for hunting, however, I'm not so sure it was a cultural thing. Wrongfully, we act as if NAs invented archery but its clear that archery was perfected in Europe and Asia thousands of years before and was over shadowed with the advent of gunpowder. Benjamin Franklin offered up the idea of arming the Continental army with long bows due to the compatible effective combat range and higher rate of fire to that of a musket. I'm not sure why we don't know more about bows in the hands of settlers or the use of friction fire methods, all I can offer is that what we do know was written by those who were literate, who may have been few and also lacked the exposure to every nuance of the frontier lifestyle as well as the fact that we read documents that have survived of course, which means we know nothing of any information that didn't stand up to the test of time. Obviously, a poor frontier family who may have fell on hard times due to a multitude of reasons may need to scratch out a living off the landscape if they couldn't afford lead, powder, flints, etc... With all of the other tales of survival, I find it hard to believe some of the same people would just up and quit their own survival because they didn't have a few crutches when they could've adapted. I could be totally wrong... Just because archery was used, maybe perfected, by anglos and asiatic people, it was long before firearms were commonplace and considered an advancement. My feeling is that Euro settlers would have seen taking game with archery tackle, especially native style archery tackle, ad being beneath them and their superior technology and culture. White folks ditch their pasts pretty quick. We killed game with "traditional" muzzleloaders for hundreds of years, archery gear has killed game for many more centuries, yet even now there are those who would argue that both technologies are unethical and incapable.
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Post by Black Hand on Mar 15, 2022 15:43:16 GMT -7
Just because archery was used, maybe perfected, by anglos and asiatic people, it was long before firearms were commonplace and considered an advancement. My feeling is that Euro settlers would have seen taking game with archery tackle, especially native style archery tackle, ad being beneath them and their superior technology and culture. White folks ditch their pasts pretty quick. We killed game with "traditional" muzzleloaders for hundreds of years, archery gear has killed game for many more centuries, yet even now there are those who would argue that both technologies are unethical and incapable. Agreed & agreed!
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Joe
City-dweller
Posts: 170
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Post by Joe on Mar 15, 2022 19:48:50 GMT -7
White folks ditch their pasts pretty quick. We killed game with "traditional" muzzleloaders for hundreds of years, archery gear has killed game for many more centuries, yet even now there are those who would argue that both technologies are unethical and incapable. Those people should ponder how their burger was killed next time they belly up to the dinner table.
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Post by brokennock on Mar 16, 2022 5:31:08 GMT -7
White folks ditch their pasts pretty quick. We killed game with "traditional" muzzleloaders for hundreds of years, archery gear has killed game for many more centuries, yet even now there are those who would argue that both technologies are unethical and incapable. Those people should ponder how their burger was killed next time they belly up to the dinner table. Um,,, huh? I wasn't referring to vegans and such. I was comparing modern "hunters" (and some game commission people) who seem to think only the latest technology can kill game, to the possible attitudes of colonial and early Americans who seemed to shun primitive methods of taking game, such as archery.
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Post by spence on Mar 16, 2022 8:40:35 GMT -7
brokennock said, "My feeling is that Euro settlers would have seen taking game with archery tackle, especially native style archery tackle, ad being beneath them and their superior technology and culture."
I suspect General Hand would agree with you on that, even if a bit tongue-in-cheek.
Gen. Edward Hand to Richard Peters July 10, 1778. Frontier Advance on the Upper Ohio, 1778-1779, Kellog and Thwaites, eds. (Draper manuscripts) “If there is not a possibility of obtaining lead, I wish (I) might be indulged with a cargo of bows and arrows, as our people are not yet expert enough at the sling to kill Indians with pebbles."
Spence
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Joe
City-dweller
Posts: 170
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Post by Joe on Mar 16, 2022 11:29:25 GMT -7
Those people should ponder how their burger was killed next time they belly up to the dinner table. Um,,, huh? I wasn't referring to vegans and such. I was comparing modern "hunters" (and some game commission people) who seem to think only the latest technology can kill game, to the possible attitudes of colonial and early Americans who seemed to shun primitive methods of taking game, such as archery. Sorry brokennock, I wasn't referring to Vegans either. I simply found it amusing that some modern hunters and "game commissioners" would shun primitive methods when the burger they ate for supper was most likely killed with a knife. Don't get much more "primitive" than that. My local butcher uses a .22 mag and as you say, most would consider that inadequate. Personally, I think everyone should start off hunting with the most "inadequate" weapon possible. I was reading though some accounts from early settlers (pilgrims and such) about natives and hunting and from what I read The bow and arrow was probably the least used method of acquiring game. They had a plethora of tricks, techniques, and methods of capturing and killing animals that didn't involve a bow and arrow.
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Post by spence on Mar 16, 2022 12:26:43 GMT -7
A New Voyage to Carolina; Containing the Exact Description and Natural History of That Country: Together with the Present State Thereof. And A Journal of a Thousand Miles, Travel'd Thro' Several Nations of Indians. Giving a Particular Account of Their Customs, Manners, &c. by Lawson, John, [1674-1711] Gent., Surveyor-General of North Carolina [printed1709] docsouth.unc.edu/nc/lawson/lawson.html"All small Game, as Turkeys, Ducks, and small Vermine, they commonly kill with Bow and Arrow, thinking it not worth throwing Powder and Shot after them." Spence
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Post by Black Hand on Mar 16, 2022 15:55:20 GMT -7
Um,,, huh? I wasn't referring to vegans and such. I was comparing modern "hunters" (and some game commission people) who seem to think only the latest technology can kill game, to the possible attitudes of colonial and early Americans who seemed to shun primitive methods of taking game, such as archery. Sorry brokennock, I wasn't referring to Vegans either. I simply found it amusing that some modern hunters and "game commissioners" would shun primitive methods when the burger they ate for supper was most likely killed with a knife. Don't get much more "primitive" than that. My local butcher uses a .22 mag and as you say, most would consider that inadequate. Personally, I think everyone should start off hunting with the most "inadequate" weapon possible. I was reading though some accounts from early settlers (pilgrims and such) about natives and hunting and from what I read The bow and arrow was probably the least used method of acquiring game. They had a plethora of tricks, techniques, and methods of capturing and killing animals that didn't involve a bow and arrow. Not as many qualms about game laws or ethics either at that time. When you're hungry or trying to feed your family through a long winter - catch as catch can....
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Post by brokennock on Mar 16, 2022 17:40:03 GMT -7
Um,,, huh? I wasn't referring to vegans and such. I was comparing modern "hunters" (and some game commission people) who seem to think only the latest technology can kill game, to the possible attitudes of colonial and early Americans who seemed to shun primitive methods of taking game, such as archery. Sorry brokennock, I wasn't referring to Vegans either. I simply found it amusing that some modern hunters and "game commissioners" would shun primitive methods when the burger they ate for supper was most likely killed with a knife. Don't get much more "primitive" than that. My local butcher uses a .22 mag and as you say, most would consider that inadequate. Personally, I think everyone should start off hunting with the most "inadequate" weapon possible. I was reading though some accounts from early settlers (pilgrims and such) about natives and hunting and from what I read The bow and arrow was probably the least used method of acquiring game. They had a plethora of tricks, techniques, and methods of capturing and killing animals that didn't involve a bow and arrow. All good. No apologies needed. I misunderstood you. There is a bit of difference between killing am animal for food under somewhat controlled conditions at contact distance and taking a shot at game at unknown distances under conditions one has no control over. I can see that as the naysayers argument. But, that is straying from the topic a bit far.
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