RyanAK
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Post by RyanAK on Aug 17, 2022 4:52:46 GMT -7
I've always admired that rifle. I don't remember if a wood analysis was ever done, but I had always thought it seemed more like it was built in the colonies than Europe. It does seem to have English influence, and appears to be fairly unique among extant examples. A bench copy of that rifle would be wonderful. |
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RyanAK
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Post by RyanAK on Aug 17, 2022 4:56:37 GMT -7
From Virginia: "Col. Phil also enjoyed hunting. The inventory of his possessions included "1 Rifle new made by Turvey" and "1 new Turvey," as well as a fowling piece and a gun.57 The rifle and unspecified firearm were probably made by gunsmith William Turvey (II) of London. Most Virginia planters purchased locally-made rifles, but Col. Phil had sent to London to acquire one of the best rifles available at the time. Much more accurate than those made in the colonies, this rifle was used for recreational game hunting and target matches. Turvey rifles were elegant, artistic pieces, and an obvious status symbol in the colonies.58" 57. Philip Ludwell Lee inventory in Wyrick, "Site Precis." 58. Personal communication, Wallace Gusler and Jay Gaynor, March 1992. www.geni.com/people/Philip-Ludwell-Lee-of-Stratford-Hall/6000000001180342386 Probably similar to the Kit Jim Chambers sells as the "English Gentleman's Sporting Rifle": www.flintlocks.com/rifles05.htmGus I have a photo of a Turvey 'park rifle' that I'll add to this thread. They became popular when Hanover came to power in Britain among estate owners and I do believe the Chambers kit is based on the Turvey in RCA Vol. I. I'm not sure what would make them "much more accurate than those made in the colonies"... |
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Post by brokennock on Aug 17, 2022 4:59:13 GMT -7
With the amount of wood/timber exported from the Americas, north and south, to Britain amd Europe, I've often wondered if some of the guns made there for export to here weren't stocked in woods we usually associate with American manufacture.
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Post by brokennock on Aug 17, 2022 5:10:57 GMT -7
....I'm not sure what would make them "much more accurate than those made in the colonies"... I've often wondered about this. I note that unlike with modern arms, we don't usually see the makers of the nicer muzzloading guns (not mass produced factory muzzleloaders) using accuracy as a marketing ploy. Really, we are talking about a tube attached to a piece of wood with some means to ignite an explosive substance inside. Not much there to play with for "inherent accuracy." I've often chalked up your quote to what I consider typical British/Euro ego. "Everything we British do is better than what the colonists can do," or, "everything we Germans make is better than anything anyone else, anywhere, can make." The only thing I can think of to possibly make that import gun more accurate is precision. Mostly in the boring of the barrel. Possibly, given that equipment and knowledge base conceivably was in place longer, the Brits and Germans had ways to bore a barrel resulting in less run out? |
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Post by paranger on Aug 17, 2022 5:22:30 GMT -7
With the amount of wood/timber exported from the Americas, north and south, to Britain amd Europe, I've often wondered if some of the guns made there for export to here weren't stocked in woods we usually associate with American manufacture. Funny you should mention this. I recently had a conversation with John Getz about French trade guns. He had the opportunity some years ago to handle and copy an original Tulle fusil de chasse stocked in maple. I have seen documentation suggesting "fusil Canadiennes" were assembled from parts and/or re-stocked in Montreal (see Kevin Gladysz's book French Trade Guns in North America). However, when John disassembled the original (which I believe belonged to Kit Ravenshear at the time), he found no evidence of restocking. He claims that North American lumber was routinely shipped as ballast in Ships returning from New France destined for such purposes. As timber shortages by the 18th c. were common to most of Europe (and well documented in Britain), it would not surprise me if this were common practice. |
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RyanAK
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Post by RyanAK on Aug 17, 2022 5:49:59 GMT -7
With the amount of wood/timber exported from the Americas, north and south, to Britain amd Europe, I've often wondered if some of the guns made there for export to here weren't stocked in woods we usually associate with American manufacture. Funny you should mention this. I recently had a conversation with John Getz about French trade guns. He had the opportunity some years ago to handle and copy an original Tulle fusil de chasse stocked in maple. I have seen documentation suggesting "fusil Canadiennes" were assembled from parts and/or re-stocked in Montreal (see Kevin Gladysz's book French Trade Guns in North America). However, when John disassembled the original (which I believe belonged to Kit Ravenshear at the time), he found no evidence of restocking. He claims that North American lumber was routinely shipped as ballast in Ships returning from New France destined for such purposes. As timber shortages by the 18th c. were common to most of Europe (and well documented in Britain), it would not surprise me if this were common practice. That would be truly interesting for a number of reasons... a Tulle stocked stocked in maple... 1. Was it stocked with maple in Tulle, or was it stocked/re-stocked in New France? 2. It's a trade gun, and not a fine arm. Was the situation such that even low-cost arms were being stocked with imported wood? From reading on other topics, it was always my impression that the VAST majority of timber leaving the British colonies were destined for ship building. There were huge tracts of New England forests blazed with the King's broadarrow designating trees specifically suited for marine construction. That would be species such as cedar, oak, spruce, locust, white pine, etc. If maple and walnut were routinely being shipped, these would be destined for other purposes. Possibly gunstocking. But my impression has always been that the great powers needed lumber for their navies. |
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Post by spence on Aug 17, 2022 6:19:56 GMT -7
RyanAK said: "Jaegers are wonderful and interesting to study in their own right, especially ones that can be linked to time in colonial North America."
This sounds like one.
The Pennsylvania Gazette
July 3, 1766
WAS LOST, on the 8th or 9th of May last, on the great Road betwixt Harris’ Ferry and Shippensburgh, a German rifle Gun, about two Feet in the Barrel, large Bore, carved Stock, a white Metal Lion upon the Barrel, near the Lock, with a Scepter in his Paw, double Tricker, double Sight, the under Brass or Copper, and the upper Iron. Whoever delivers said Gun to the Subscriber, or to Robert Sample, in Carlisle, or to John Miller, above Carlisle, shall have TWO DOLLARS Reward, paid by me THOMAS SIMPSON.
Spence
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Post by brokennock on Aug 17, 2022 6:21:39 GMT -7
...It's a trade gun, and not a fine arm. Was the situation such that even low-cost arms were being stocked with imported wood? Why not? Barrels full of trade knives were shipped from Britain and France handled with woods that were imported to Britain and France from the New World. For the most part the western hemisphere colonies of Britain, France, and Spain, were just a source of raw materials for their own industrial amd market endeavors. Much of what colonists purchased was made in "the old country," from raw material procured in the colonies. |
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RyanAK
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Once scalped…
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Post by RyanAK on Aug 17, 2022 6:24:36 GMT -7
RyanAK said: "Jaegers are wonderful and interesting to study in their own right, especially ones that can be linked to time in colonial North America." This sounds like one. The Pennsylvania Gazette July 3, 1766 WAS LOST, on the 8th or 9th of May last, on the great Road betwixt Harris’ Ferry and Shippensburgh, a German rifle Gun, about two Feet in the Barrel, large Bore, carved Stock, a white Metal Lion upon the Barrel, near the Lock, with a Scepter in his Paw, double Tricker, double Sight, the under Brass or Copper, and the upper Iron. Whoever delivers said Gun to the Subscriber, or to Robert Sample, in Carlisle, or to John Miller, above Carlisle, shall have TWO DOLLARS Reward, paid by me THOMAS SIMPSON. Spence Yes, exactly that. Good find Spence! There's a German Rifle Gun, ~24" barrel, with all the details one could want, Dated, Located, and with an Owner. That's about as specific as one can get! |
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Post by paranger on Aug 17, 2022 6:25:04 GMT -7
RyanAK said: "Jaegers are wonderful and interesting to study in their own right, especially ones that can be linked to time in colonial North America." This sounds like one. The Pennsylvania Gazette July 3, 1766 WAS LOST, on the 8th or 9th of May last, on the great Road betwixt Harris’ Ferry and Shippensburgh, a German rifle Gun, about two Feet in the Barrel, large Bore, carved Stock, a white Metal Lion upon the Barrel, near the Lock, with a Scepter in his Paw, double Tricker, double Sight, the under Brass or Copper, and the upper Iron. Whoever delivers said Gun to the Subscriber, or to Robert Sample, in Carlisle, or to John Miller, above Carlisle, shall have TWO DOLLARS Reward, paid by me THOMAS SIMPSON. Spence That is a great find, Spence. |
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Post by paranger on Aug 17, 2022 6:27:30 GMT -7
Funny you should mention this. I recently had a conversation with John Getz about French trade guns. He had the opportunity some years ago to handle and copy an original Tulle fusil de chasse stocked in maple. I have seen documentation suggesting "fusil Canadiennes" were assembled from parts and/or re-stocked in Montreal (see Kevin Gladysz's book French Trade Guns in North America). However, when John disassembled the original (which I believe belonged to Kit Ravenshear at the time), he found no evidence of restocking. He claims that North American lumber was routinely shipped as ballast in Ships returning from New France destined for such purposes. As timber shortages by the 18th c. were common to most of Europe (and well documented in Britain), it would not surprise me if this were common practice. That would be truly interesting for a number of reasons... a Tulle stocked stocked in maple... 1. Was it stocked with maple in Tulle, or was it stocked/re-stocked in New France? 2. It's a trade gun, and not a fine arm. Was the situation such that even low-cost arms were being stocked with imported wood? From reading on other topics, it was always my impression that the VAST majority of timber leaving the British colonies were destined for ship building. There were huge tracts of New England forests blazed with the King's broadarrow designating trees specifically suited for marine construction. That would be species such as cedar, oak, spruce, locust, white pine, etc. If maple and walnut were routinely being shipped, these would be destined for other purposes. Possibly gunstocking. But my impression has always been that the great powers needed lumber for their navies. No doubt about the export of timber for naval stores. But as you say, maple doesn't really fit in this category, and Canada was /is full of it... |
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RyanAK
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Once scalped…
Posts: 973
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Post by RyanAK on Aug 17, 2022 6:43:48 GMT -7
The Pennsylvania Gazette February 17, 1773 Philadelphia, February 15, 1773. To be SOLD very cheap, for cash only, by CONRAD BATIS, Living in Market street, next door to the corner of Third street, opposite to the goal, in Philadelphia, A QUANTITY of this country and German made RIFLES, both cut and smooth bores,... The South-Carolina GAZETTE February 25, 1764 CHARLES-TOWN At the same place are to be sold, the best, handsomest and cheapest rifle barrel guns ever imported into this province. The South-Carolina GAZETTE March 10, 1764 JOHN DODD , Gunsmith, CHARLES-TOWN Has imported in the Heart-of-Oak, Capt. Henry Gunn, on assortment of the following articles , viz…..BEST Dutch rifles, with moulds and wipers, The South-Carolina GAZETTE June 2, 1759 BREMAR & NEYLE HAVE lately imported the following Articles, from LONDON & BRISTOL, Which they will sell at TEN for ONE, allowing the usual T M CREDIT, Or at NINE for ONE READY MONEY. Location: CHARLES-TOWN A compleat assortment of fowling pieces, rifle-barrel and trading guns,... The Pennsylvania Gazette September 6, 1764 Imported from Liverpool, and to be sold for prime Cost, at ROBERT TOWERS,... cutting knives, traces, rat traps, rifle, double barrel and smooth bore guns, pistols, flints, bullet and shot molds, with a variety of other things. Spence Lots of good snips here, as always from Spence. Philadelphia, 1773 - German Rifles and Smooth Rifles. Boy I'd love to know what these were like! Charleston, 1764 - Rifle barrel guns of unknown type, but assumed English. Charleston, 1764 - Dutch rifles, imported and sold by a Gunsmith. Hmm... Charleston, 1759 - English rifles, fowling pieces and trade guns. Pennsylvania, assume Philly, 1764 - English rifles, double barrel guns, and smoothbore guns. I'd love to know more about all of these, but the English rifles in particular. Were they fine pieces, or something like a rifled Type-G? My understanding is the the 'Dutch' guns could be just about anything someone would want, but predominantly Germanic patterns. |
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RyanAK
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Post by RyanAK on Aug 17, 2022 6:51:54 GMT -7
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RyanAK
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Post by RyanAK on Aug 17, 2022 8:12:11 GMT -7
Shumway, Rifles of Colonial America Vol. I
CHAPTER 3
ENGLISH RIFLES AND GUNS
Throughout the 18th century England had a very well developed firearms industry. In part, particularly in London, this concerned itself with supplying fine arms to the nobility and others of means. In addition, a trade of considerable size was carried on to supply the military needs of the day. A third branch of the arms trade, centered primarily at Birmingham and secondarily at Liverpool, was involved supplying arms for colonial trade, the fur trade, and treaty purposes. Almost all of this activity involved the production of smoothbore guns and pistols. Prior to the Revolutionary War the rifle-barreled gun was a very uncommon arm in England. On rare occasions a rifle was produced on special order by some London gunsmith, but basically the rifle was not a part of the English gun-making and gun-using culture during the first three quarters of the 18th century. However, during the 1760's English rifle barrels were made for export and were exported to America for the colonial gun trade.
Because the rifle was not a part of the English firearms culture during the first three quarters of the 18th century, the influence of the English arms culture on the evolution of the American rifle was much less important than that of the Germanic arms culture. The light-weight long-barreled English smoothbore gun certainly was not uncommon in the colonies, and it ranged in quality from fine gentlemen's guns from London to relatively plain trade guns and other comparable arms from Birmingham and the provincial centers. The colonial gunsmith, in making a smoothbore gun, often followed English patterns and styles, particularly in the coastal towns where standards were set by the readily available English arms.
But when it came time for those colonial gunsmiths who basically were trained in the English tradition to build a rifle, they sometimes ran into difficulties. Such was the case for gunsmiths of New England, and to a lesser extent, some gunsmiths of Virginia. Some of the rifles of Southern origin, or believed to be of Southern origin, shown in this book, exhibit the effect of combining English and Germanic features. The result can be charming and beautiful when well handled, and awkward when not.
The rifle illustrated on the following pages is the rare example of an English-made piece probably dating to about 1740. It shows how a particularly competent London gunsmith handled the problem of making a rifle within the traditions of his trade. Whether or not any rifles comparable to this were made in colonial America I do not know, but it is possible that a few were.
Shumway was always looking with an eye to how things related to the development of the American Longrifle. We have an example in the William Turvey rifle, but no information related to trade- or mid-quality rifles coming into and possibly influencing colonial riflemaking. Important to note, too, that many of the "gentleman's" or "Park" rifles show a strong Germanic influence, blended with English gunmaking norms.
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Post by spence on Aug 17, 2022 18:05:18 GMT -7
Because the rifle was not a part of the English firearms culture during the first three quarters of the 18th century,.... Maybe not that early. I’ve frequently been confused about the relation of the English to rifles. They are rightly admired for their long history of expertise with smoothbores, but they seem to have resisted rifle culture until dragged into it. I was very surprised when I read this book: Scloppetaria: or Considerations on the nature and use of rifled barrel guns, with reference to their forming the basis of a permanent system of national defence, agreeable to the genius of the country, by Capt. Henry Beaufroy, 1808 [Henry Benjamin Hanbury Beaufroy] Originally published as “Scloppetaria, by a Corporal of Riflemen”. The author said: “It is but within these last few years that the rifle has been generally known in this country, although in Germany, Switzerland and most parts of the continent, it was in common use.” “Who, five years ago, when Rifles were just coming into notice, would have credited the assertion, one telling him that, with practice, 300 yards would be an almost certain distance? And yet we now see men among us firing successfully from the shoulder, at distances which before were scarcely ever attempted even from a rest?” books.google.com/books?id=AO9eAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA158&lpg=PA158&dq=scloppetaria&source=bl&ots=7enOhVnOsn&sig=fCRtLke9Q4eamuLKko1N5Ap7I6g&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjDmIWi_q7NAhUFOCYKHUHBBwMQ6AEIUTAN#v=onepage&q=scloppetaria&f=falseJust coming into notice in 1803? Didn’t they notice them 20+ years before when Britain was losing her American colonies? Maybe it’s an example of what the wag meant when he said, "The way to give an Englishman a chuckle in his old age is to tell him a joke when he's young." Spence |
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