RyanAK
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Once scalped…
Posts: 973
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Post by RyanAK on Jul 9, 2023 12:48:55 GMT -7
Hey gang. I’ve hit the bottom on one of my research projects and hope the collective powers of the forum might be able to lend an assist. So… the 18th century tailoring is getting serious for me. I’m deep into primary sources and contemporary works on the trade and I’m getting pretty good. To further my skills, I’m taking a workshop this November at Fort Ticonderoga. I’ll be crating a 1770s regimental, learning production and field tailoring with the Fort’s artificer tailors. I’m pretty excited. That leads to the question of which regimental coat to recreate. In considering this, I focused on the Susquehanna frontier from 1777-1779. It was a brutal, terrifying place. Much of the defense of the frontier fell to Militia and Ranger companies, but various Continental units were also involved in the conflict. One that was almost continuously on station from spring of ‘78 until it joined the Sullivan Expedition in late summer of ‘79 was Hartley’s Additional Continental Regiment. A brief history would read… Raised early 1777 as Hartley’s Additional Continental Regiment Serves with the Main Army during the Philadelphia Campaign, 1st PA Brigade, Wayne’s Division Encamps at Valley Forge, winter ‘77-‘78 - 1st PA Brigade, Wayne’s Division March 1778, incorporated into the Pennsylvania Line Spring 1778, deploys to the Susquehanna frontier, via Lancaster and York. Semi autonomous in the Middle Department October 1778, consolidation with Patton’s Additional and various other independent companies begins. Still deployed on the frontier. January 1779, officially consolidated as the “New” 11th Pennsylvania Regiment. Lt. Col. Adam Hubley commands the regiment. Still stationed on the frontier. April 1779, Assigned to Hand’s Brigade as Light Infantry ahead of the Sullivan Expedition June 1779, 11th Pennsylvania joins Sullivan’s army at Wyoming June - October 1779 Participates in Sullivan Expedition Now… the question for me is… how was Hartley’s and the ‘new’ 11th uniformed? I have some breadcrumbs, but I’ve been chasing this for close to two months and I haven’t found much definitive information. I even purchased a $50 book which is a compilation of deserter reports… hoping for a clue. My dedication is pure. Ha! Only consistently mentioned attribute from 1777 through 1779 is Blue regimentals. But even that is in question. Here’s Troiani’s rendering. I was surprised to see he took on Hartley’s as subject matter. Considering his normal level of research I’d hope this would be close. I still want to see his sources.  (Can’t seem to find his email address…)  So… any and all other information on Hartley’s/11th PA uniform supply would be much appreciated. I’ll be sharing what I have already found as time allows. Thanks in advance. R |
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Post by artificer on Jul 9, 2023 16:07:14 GMT -7
Sorry I don't have information on the 11th.
However, I would LOVE to know why Don Troiani illustrated the soldier with what appears to be a locally made Infantry Hanger that late in the 18th century. Virtually all British Soldiers by that time, including the Black Watch and other Highland Units, only wore swords on special duty and most were stored rather than worn. It's hard for me to fathom PA going to the expense of outfitting their soldiers with a weapon no one was still actively using in the field. Now a Serjeant (18th century spelling) may have worn a sword as a badge of his rank, but there is no Serjeant's shoulder insignia in the print.
Not sure who, if anyone is handling emails for Don Troiani. About 4 years ago I found out from a mutual friend that Don was already going or mostly blind, I'm extremely sorry to say.
Gus
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RyanAK
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Once scalped…
Posts: 973
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Post by RyanAK on Jul 9, 2023 16:46:17 GMT -7
Wonderful insight Gus. However… this portrayal IS in fact a serjeant. If you look closely, you’ll see a red tuft at the right shoulder, indicating a rank epaulette.
The hanger would be an additional indicator of rank. Hartley and many Continental officers were quite concerned with appearances. Hartley’s original design for his regiment’s uniform was “blue faced with white, in the cut of your Excellency’s” (George Washington). There are several accounts about the shortage of cloth of the quality needed for NCOs uniforms… necessary for them to receive the respect due their station.
A hanger makes sense in this context.
If you want to see someone completely overwhelmed with the appearance of the troops, read some of Anthony Wayne’s letters to Washington. Golly!
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Post by artificer on Jul 9, 2023 17:19:28 GMT -7
OK, I missed the red tuft, but that doesn't seem to go along with Hartley's wishes of a "blue faced with white" regimental where one would expect to see a white epaulette for a Serjeant, unless he was in the Artillery and that doesn't look like an Artillery Serjeant by his arms and accoutrements.
Still, it is possible it may be a red Serjeant's epaulette. I wonder if Hartley also specified red instead of white epaulettes for his Infantry Serjeants?
Gus
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RyanAK
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Once scalped…
Posts: 973
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Post by RyanAK on Jul 9, 2023 17:37:46 GMT -7
Continental NCO ranks were designed by a single epaulette on the right shoulder by 1777. Green for corporals and red for serjeants.
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Post by artificer on Jul 9, 2023 17:38:59 GMT -7
Thank you.
Gus
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Post by artificer on Jul 9, 2023 17:52:40 GMT -7
If you want to see someone completely overwhelmed with the appearance of the troops, read some of Anthony Wayne’s letters to Washington. Golly! I've read some of "Mad" Anthony's AWI letters, but have not seen the one or ones that address this. Do you have links? Most of my reading on him has been when he commanded the American Legion in the 1790's and fully deserves the title, "Father of the Modern American Army." Gus |
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RyanAK
City-dweller
Once scalped…
Posts: 973
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Post by RyanAK on Jul 9, 2023 18:10:06 GMT -7
I must acknowledge that I have an ⟨mutilated⟩ prejudice in favor of an Elegant Uniform & Soldierly appearance—so much so that I would much rather risque my life and Reputation at the Head of the same men in an attack Clothed & Appointed as I could wish, with a Single Charge of Amunition—than to take them as they appear in Common with Sixty Rounds of Cartridges—it may be a false Idea but I can’t help Cherishing it.Anthony Wayne to George Washington - July 5th, 1779. founders.archives.gov/documents/Washington/03-21-02-0289This is a fabulous resource with a powerful search and sort function.
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Post by artificer on Jul 10, 2023 1:35:45 GMT -7
I must acknowledge that I have an ⟨mutilated⟩ prejudice in favor of an Elegant Uniform & Soldierly appearance—so much so that I would much rather risque my life and Reputation at the Head of the same men in an attack Clothed & Appointed as I could wish, with a Single Charge of Amunition—than to take them as they appear in Common with Sixty Rounds of Cartridges—it may be a false Idea but I can’t help Cherishing it.Anthony Wayne to George Washington - July 5th, 1779. founders.archives.gov/documents/Washington/03-21-02-0289This is a fabulous resource with a powerful search and sort function. Thank you. That's a GREAT quote and perhaps more understandable since the letter involved receiving and issuing new uniforms. Gen. Wayne had been with the Army over the winter in Valley Forge and witnessed Baron von Steuben perform almost a military miracle turning what remained of the American forces into a real and disciplined Army. (I do think it's a modern mistake to downplay the average soldier there, though, because though they suffered and had been beaten a number of times, they were still the true believers with the courage and fortitude to stick it out.) Wayne saw that group of soldiers become not only a disciplined Army, but also with pride in what they accomplished under extreme stress. They came out of Valley Forge not only able, but willing to stand up to the finest Army on earth, much to what must have been the shock of the British Army. www.nps.gov/vafo/learn/historyculture/wayne.htmGeneral Wayne never forgot the importance of training and discipline to instill ability and pride into an Army. When given command of what was left over from the Continental Army and new volunteers in 1792, he did not give in to those who foolishly wanted them to attack too soon and get beaten. He knew he had to train the men first to turn them into real soldiers. Though we often make fun of WIKI for good reason, in at least the following case, they did a pretty darn good job of explaining it. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LegionvilleGen. Wayne had learned the importance of training his soldiers in both marksmanship and fast reloading, but he still "sort of" got his wish from the AWI quote when he sent his main body of Infantry to attack with bayonets at Fallen Timbers. Accounts disagree whether or not their muskets were loaded in that attack, but they certainly swept the field that day in what might have been the real life answer to his AWI dream from that quote. Gus |
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Post by artificer on Jul 10, 2023 3:02:02 GMT -7
OK, not sure if you have any or all of these links and sources, but I hope you may learn at least a tidbit or two from them. freepages.rootsweb.com/~tqpeiffer/genealogy/Documents/MILITARY%20%20Vets%20-%20Units/Military%20Units/Source%20Documents/10th%20Virginia/ValleyForgeUnitList.pdfwww.revwartalk.com/11th-pennsylvania-regiment/Upon the recommendation of delegate Richard Henry Lee, Washington appointed Thomas Hartley as colonel of one "additional" regiment. Hartley was the former lieutenant colonel of the 6th Pennsylvania Battalion. Hartley had broad authority to select his own officers. Accordingly, Hartley chose as his lieutenant colonel Morgan Connor, major of the 1st Pennsylvania Regiment. Initially, Hartley's Regiment was to contain ten companies, however, Hartley seems only to have recruited eight; four from Pennsylvania, three from Maryland and one from Virginia. Hartley's Regiment included a grenadier company, which was unusual for an American unit. The troops assembled at Philadelphia in the spring of 1777. On 22 May 1777 the regiment became part of the 1st Pennsylvania Brigade in Washington's main army. alchetron.com/Hartley%27s-Additional-Continental-RegimentHis possible portrait in uniform? upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/53/ThomasHartley.jpg/300px-ThomasHartley.jpgA possible source in which to enquire more? www.facebook.com/YorkCountyHistoryCenter/videos/aoc-hartleys-additional-continental-regiment/2839438302959015/Perhaps another source to find out more? jerseyhistory.org/guide-to-the-7th-rifle-regiment-of-the-pennsylvania-line-pattons-additional-regimentorderly-book1776-1802mg-224mg0224/Casualties from the Battle of Paoli pbpfinc.org/know-casualties-listed-by-regiment/Are you ready for this? How about info on the Regimental Buttons from dug artifacts? donsnotes.com/nyc-nj/revolutioncontinued.htmlWe sometimes forget or don't know that folks interested in military miniatures can be as stickley on uniforms (or more so) than some of the most ardent reenactors. I think you will find this link especially interesting. www.theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=180111Gus |
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RyanAK
City-dweller
Once scalped…
Posts: 973
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Post by RyanAK on Jul 10, 2023 19:35:31 GMT -7
I must acknowledge that I have an ⟨mutilated⟩ prejudice in favor of an Elegant Uniform & Soldierly appearance—so much so that I would much rather risque my life and Reputation at the Head of the same men in an attack Clothed & Appointed as I could wish, with a Single Charge of Amunition—than to take them as they appear in Common with Sixty Rounds of Cartridges—it may be a false Idea but I can’t help Cherishing it.Anthony Wayne to George Washington - July 5th, 1779. founders.archives.gov/documents/Washington/03-21-02-0289This is a fabulous resource with a powerful search and sort function. Thank you. That's a GREAT quote and perhaps more understandable since the letter involved receiving and issuing new uniforms. Gen. Wayne had been with the Army over the winter in Valley Forge and witnessed Baron von Steuben perform almost a military miracle turning what remained of the American forces into a real and disciplined Army. (I do think it's a modern mistake to downplay the average soldier there, though, because though they suffered and had been beaten a number of times, they were still the true believers with the courage and fortitude to stick it out.) Wayne saw that group of soldiers become not only a disciplined Army, but also with pride in what they accomplished under extreme stress. They came out of Valley Forge not only able, but willing to stand up to the finest Army on earth, much to what must have been the shock of the British Army. www.nps.gov/vafo/learn/historyculture/wayne.htmGeneral Wayne never forgot the importance of training and discipline to instill ability and pride into an Army. When given command of what was left over from the Continental Army and new volunteers in 1792, he did not give in to those who foolishly wanted them to attack too soon and get beaten. He knew he had to train the men first to turn them into real soldiers. Though we often make fun of WIKI for good reason, in at least the following case, they did a pretty darn good job of explaining it. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LegionvilleGen. Wayne had learned the importance of training his soldiers in both marksmanship and fast reloading, but he still "sort of" got his wish from the AWI quote when he sent his main body of Infantry to attack with bayonets at Fallen Timbers. Accounts disagree whether or not their muskets were loaded in that attack, but they certainly swept the field that day in what might have been the real life answer to his AWI dream from that quote. Gus Well isn’t it damn neat that thread of character of Wayne from the AWI to Fallen Timbers. How cool! Also… remember that Wayne took the bayonet charge from the 2d Light Infantry at Paoli. “No Flint” Grey sent the troops in with firelocks incapable of firing to preserve surprise and enforce the use of the bayonet. Methinks that’s a lesson Wayne never forgot. |
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RyanAK
City-dweller
Once scalped…
Posts: 973
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Post by RyanAK on Jul 10, 2023 20:51:30 GMT -7
OK, not sure if you have any or all of these links and sources, but I hope you may learn at least a tidbit or two from them. freepages.rootsweb.com/~tqpeiffer/genealogy/Documents/MILITARY%20%20Vets%20-%20Units/Military%20Units/Source%20Documents/10th%20Virginia/ValleyForgeUnitList.pdfwww.revwartalk.com/11th-pennsylvania-regiment/Upon the recommendation of delegate Richard Henry Lee, Washington appointed Thomas Hartley as colonel of one "additional" regiment. Hartley was the former lieutenant colonel of the 6th Pennsylvania Battalion. Hartley had broad authority to select his own officers. Accordingly, Hartley chose as his lieutenant colonel Morgan Connor, major of the 1st Pennsylvania Regiment. Initially, Hartley's Regiment was to contain ten companies, however, Hartley seems only to have recruited eight; four from Pennsylvania, three from Maryland and one from Virginia. Hartley's Regiment included a grenadier company, which was unusual for an American unit. The troops assembled at Philadelphia in the spring of 1777. On 22 May 1777 the regiment became part of the 1st Pennsylvania Brigade in Washington's main army. alchetron.com/Hartley%27s-Additional-Continental-RegimentHis possible portrait in uniform? upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/53/ThomasHartley.jpg/300px-ThomasHartley.jpgA possible source in which to enquire more? www.facebook.com/YorkCountyHistoryCenter/videos/aoc-hartleys-additional-continental-regiment/2839438302959015/Perhaps another source to find out more? jerseyhistory.org/guide-to-the-7th-rifle-regiment-of-the-pennsylvania-line-pattons-additional-regimentorderly-book1776-1802mg-224mg0224/Casualties from the Battle of Paoli pbpfinc.org/know-casualties-listed-by-regiment/Are you ready for this? How about info on the Regimental Buttons from dug artifacts? donsnotes.com/nyc-nj/revolutioncontinued.htmlWe sometimes forget or don't know that folks interested in military miniatures can be as stickley on uniforms (or more so) than some of the most ardent reenactors. I think you will find this link especially interesting. www.theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=180111Gus Great sources. Most I’ve seen but some are new and I’m picking through them. I’m hoping to stumble upon one quote that gives a definitive statement about the regimentals issued to Hartley’s Regiment sometime around Valley Forge or after. Here’s what I’ve been able to find so far… February 1777 Upon creation of the regiment, Col. Hartley wrote George Washington that the uniform would be “blue faced with white, cut as your Excellency’s”. Thomas Hartley was an Uber-Washington-Fanboy. You should read some of the letters. He wanted to name the regiment the Washington Guards. Sheesh! That said, he was an extremely capable officer. Mid-1777 I found a deserter ad for a soldier from Hartley’s wearing “a blue regimental with a white collar”. Hmmm… JUST a white collar? GW will be disappointed, Tommy. However, this does conform to accounts of early-war regimentals. Many were of pretty shoddy make, often single-breasted or double-breasted but with non-functional lapels. As in… they were sewn to the coat front. Non-working collars (capes) and cuffs were common as well. Now follow this… Part of the emergency situation at Valley Forge was not only bedraggled soldiers in rags… but many of the boys couldn’t button their damn coats! August 1778 Hartley’s is detached and on the Susquehanna frontier, garrisoning forts and ranging the forests. They must have had clothing supplied either at Valley Forge or at York (then seat of Congress) or Lancaster (the main supply hub) before moving up to the North and West Branches. An ad describing thieves in Lancaster from Hartley’s regiment describe them wearing “blue regimentals faced with yellow”. Now… the supply situation being what it was, certain colors were increasingly difficult to come by. Blue, red, and buff in particular were scarce at various times. Per a letter from Clothier General Mease, BUFF was often substituted with… YELLOW. October 1778 Consolidation begins and GW writes to the Board of War that Patton’s men “shall be uniformed as Hartley’s “. Which was… WHAT??? November 1778 Hartley’s Regiment seems to have been left out of the distribution of the French contract clothing. These are the famous “lottery” coats. Grumble… diatribe for another day… Winter 1778-1779 Still on the frontier as a nearly autonomous corps in the Middle Department (whatever that actually was…). Not brigaded, but somewhat under the direction of Edward Hand… who was 100+ miles away on the upper Delaware. Now officially consolidated as the new 11th Pennsylvania under Lt. Col. Adam Hubley. Another very capable officer. May 1779 Washington directs Sullivan to have the 4th and 11th Pennsylvania clothed by the Board of War ahead of the Sullivan Expedition. In… what?? June 1779 A deserter ad for soldiers of the 11th Pennsylvania Regiment states “All the above described men have small round hats and long blue uniform coats faced with buff.” Ah ha! Wait… long uniform coats? Interesting. The trend at the time was for a shorter coat, for ease during campaign and for economy in the use of cloth. ‘Bobbed’ coats was a thing, especially for light infantry. Ah, but the New 11th is a battalion regiment. Hell, they even had grenadiers at one point. And a detachment of dragoons!! June-October 1779 The 11th is part of Hand’s Brigade to act as Light Infantry during the Sullivan Expedition. (Good grief…) There are notes that most of Sullivan’s force was issued hunting shirts while the army was consolidating at Wyoming. After returning, there was enormous concern on the toll the expedition took on the clothing of the army. The 4th and 11th Pa we’re especially singled out as being particularly naked. July 1780 Two deserters were described thus: “…had on when he went away, a blue regimental coat, faced with red, brown vest, white linen drawers, white woolen stockings, and a round felt hat (bound.)” And “Had on when he went away, a blue regimental coat, faced with red and buff edging, white jacket and breeches, and a round hat with a black feather, chews tobacco.” These blue-faced-with-red regimentals comply with the General Orders of October 2, 1779, wherein the Pennsylvania Line were to be uniformed as such. So… sometime during the winter cantonnement ’79-‘80, the 11th Pennsylvania was uniformed per regulation. That’s it. Ha. |
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Post by artificer on Jul 11, 2023 5:03:14 GMT -7
Fascinating info. Thanks, I enjoyed reading that.
The quote about the company of Grenadiers seems to explain the leather Mitre helmet Troiani used in his illustration you posted above. It would also better explain the soldier armed with an Infantry Hanger, as Grenadiers were often tasked with special ceremonial duties.
I first learned of them substituting yellow for buff back in the mid 1970's when I was researching the Continental Marines. The Marine Corps was hugely interested in our history long before I came on active duty in Oct 1971. They never have been able to figure out exactly why Green was chosen for our AWI Regimentals and originally faced with buff. Most of the early Continental Marine enlisted wore whatever they showed up with when recruited, as they had no uniforms to issue for many months after they first formed on 10 Nov 1775.
What I consider to be the best of the possible explanations was one of our earliest Navy Ships with a Marine Detachment, captured a British Supply ship. They found Green regimentals faced with buff and most likely for Loyalist Units as part of the cargo. I joke that was the origin of our grand tradition of stealing things we need from our own or any other Navy or Army. LOL.
At least one, if not two ship's detachments of Marines were forced to use Yellow for the facing after buff became so hard to get. I'm a bit rusty on this; we stayed with Green Regimentals, but changed to red for our facings in I think it was 1779, but don't quote me on that until I look it up.
Gus
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RyanAK
City-dweller
Once scalped…
Posts: 973
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Post by RyanAK on Jul 12, 2023 13:58:02 GMT -7
Fun stuff, eh?
The headgear seems to be very specifically chosen by Troiani, so he must have some piece of information that led to that being included in his portrait of Hartley’s regiment. Grenadiers, ‘Guards’ (considered elite troops… remember Hartley wanted his regiment named “Washington Guards”…) and light infantry could have been wearing a leather cap of one style or another. The hanger may be associated with the Grenadier company; the fact that the image depicts a Sarjeant and the hanger is a symbol of rank; or… just something Troiani included as an artistic device.
I did find an email address for Troiani. Hopefully I can pull my thoughts together enough to write a coherent note asking about how research.
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Post by artificer on Jul 12, 2023 18:41:09 GMT -7
Ryan,
Along with studying the uniform of Hartley's Additional Regiment as a guide to sew your Regimental, have you chosen a time period for it yet? Here's why that could be important.
You may have already thought of this, but if not, I would ask the Artificer Tailor at Ticonderoga if there were any general or known slight changes in the way Regimentals were sewn during the length of the War on top of the natural differences one would have seen because they were hand made and often in different locations. This latter sometimes to often true even in different Coy's (Companies) in American Regiments.
Gus
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(Can’t seem to find his email address…) 