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Post by brokennock on Oct 2, 2020 8:17:01 GMT -7
What is wrong, not hc/pc, in these pictures?
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Post by spence on Oct 2, 2020 8:38:26 GMT -7
I'm no judge of HC/PC, but I have a couple of questions about your pictures, if you please.
What is the reason for converting color photos to black and white? To make them look old?
I saw color versions of one of these photos on that other forum, and am curious about your orange shirt. Is that what you wear as safety orange when hunting? Does your state require hunter orange? If so, does your outfit meet the requirement?
In Kentucky that outfit would get you a ticket. The orange doesn't appear to be safety orange, and it covers none of your torso and not enough of your head to qualify here.
Spence
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Post by Black Hand on Oct 2, 2020 9:22:01 GMT -7
While the B&W effect is nice, color pictures would work better for addressing your question...  |
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Post by brokennock on Oct 2, 2020 15:10:16 GMT -7
This all raises the question I have been asking and no one can or will give a straight answer to.
If a large part of, if not the entire, point to is excersize is to experience living, or hunting/scouting like our colonial ancestors did, is excepted as our premise. Then, if the materials used, wool, linen, some cotton, leather, wood, bone, antler, etc. are all period correct. And, the cuts/styles match the period, then, everything should feel and function as well, or as poorly, as period clothing and gear, and we should be getting a similar experience. Color does not effect the fit and function of an item, that I can tell (barring modern camo).
So, does color of clothing matter?
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Post by brokennock on Oct 2, 2020 15:20:18 GMT -7
Here are the color images Spence refers to,
In the black and white photos one would never know the shirt is orange. If blindfolded and the short was put on you, after a similar period shirt was taken off, you wouldn't know it to be any different.
However, if I go through all the time, effort, and expense to make or get the most correct clothing I can, including color, and then through a nylon orange vest over it, I damn sure will know it. I'll hear it. I'll feel it.
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Post by brokennock on Oct 2, 2020 15:28:38 GMT -7
I'm no judge of HC/PC, but I have a couple of questions about your pictures, if you please. What is the reason for converting color photos to black and white? To make them look old? I saw color versions of one of these photos on that other forum, and am curious about your orange shirt. Is that what you wear as safety orange when hunting? Does your state require hunter orange? If so, does your outfit meet the requirement? In Kentucky that outfit would get you a ticket. The orange doesn't appear to be safety orange, and it covers none of your torso and not enough of your head to qualify here. Spence To address the orange question. It probably doesn't make the grade as far as brightness/shade. The dye bottle described it as "safety orange" for making work safety and hunting clothes. I find it lacking myself. I'm not sure it makes the requirement for brightness but the places I would go wearing it. it likely won't matter as I rarely see Fish and Game enforcement in those places. Our hunter orange requirement law states we must wear "400 square inches, visible from all sides." It does not require it to be a hat or a certain percentage of the torso. Those sleeves are over 400 square inches. The hat band is hunter orange, but not enough of it.
Of course, I wouldn't wear the "camel" colored waistcoat during any of our firearms deer seasons. I have a burgundy wool one for then, lol.
By then it will be cold enough for the hunter orange wool matchcoat. That would certainly meet most state's requirements.
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Keith
City-dweller
Bushfire close but safe now. Getting some good rain.
Posts: 990 
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Post by Keith on Oct 2, 2020 15:31:11 GMT -7
Frankly I can't see anything out of place here in these images, but if anyone else can, then I would be interested to know what it is for my own education. Does colour matter? Well for me personally it does, yes, I need to be wearing colours that suit my persona as a woodsman. PS. I just saw the colour images, SCARY!!!  Me thinks this bloke would not last long in hostile country. Keith. |
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Post by brokennock on Oct 2, 2020 16:05:21 GMT -7
Thanks Keith. Coming from you that means a lot.
Not all the bag materials are truly period. But, that bag was loaded from a trip to the range and I was anxious to get out of the house and into the woods, so I just grabbed it and went. The strap is craft store cotton webbing.
The orange is scary, but, it is my attempt to comply with the law, even though I don't agree with it.
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Post by Black Hand on Oct 2, 2020 16:14:27 GMT -7
Color could matter...
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Post by spence on Oct 2, 2020 17:12:53 GMT -7
However, if I go through all the time, effort, and expense to make or get the most correct clothing I can, including color, and then through a nylon orange vest over it, I damn sure will know it. I'll hear it. I'll feel it.
And you don't hear it, feel it, know it with those orange sleeves in your face the whole outing? I guess that's why they say "different strokes for different folks'. They would ruin my day. Over many years I've seen many people decide to make many different pieces of period clothing from safety orange, but I've never been able to get my head around that concept. To each his own. As I said, I'm no judge of HC/PC, because my approach to the game is a bit different. But, your outfit looks great, to me, I don't see anything which jumps out at me as being off. I know you have put a lot of effort into it, and I think it paid off. Be forewarned, if we ever meet I'm going to steal that waistcoat. Spence |
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Post by spence on Oct 2, 2020 17:20:32 GMT -7
Brokennock said: "I'm not sure it makes the requirement for brightness but the places I would go wearing it. it likely won't matter as I rarely see Fish and Game enforcement in those places." Hmmmm... Proper brightness is intended to keep you from getting shot. Inverse relationship. I'm not sure I'd be comforted by the thought that I might get shot but at least I won't run afoul of the game warden.  Spence |
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Post by hawkeyes on Oct 2, 2020 17:25:01 GMT -7
As mentioned over texting, you look great my friend. Very well done!
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Post by brokennock on Oct 2, 2020 17:42:32 GMT -7
Brokennock said: "I'm not sure it makes the requirement for brightness but the places I would go wearing it. it likely won't matter as I rarely see Fish and Game enforcement in those places." Hmmmm... Proper brightness is intended to keep you from getting shot. Inverse relationship. I'm not sure I'd be comforted by the thought that I might get shot but at least I won't run afoul of the game warden. Spence If hunter orange is so effective in keeping people from getting shot during hunting season, then why doesn't everyone using the state forests open to hunting have to wear it? The mountain bikers, dog walkers, hikers, and anti-hunters out looking to give me a hard time, should have to wear it too. I very, very, rarely run into other small game hunters. Occasionally other deer hunters. The only time I spend hunting that I encounter a lot of other people is hunting pheasant in areas that they are stocked. Honestly I didn't notice the sleeves that much. Had they been noisy, weird feeling nylon, I certainly would have. Maybe I was too distracted by how miserable my feet were in trekker boots that are slightly too large. Between the soles slipping on stuff (had to cross a stream in wet rocks, fun) and my feet slipping around in the boots, I'll stick with moccasins until it gets cold enough to wear a couple pairs of wool stockings with the boots. If we ever meet, you can have the waistcoat, as payment for all I've learned, all the info you've shared, over the many years. |
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ewoaf
City-dweller
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Post by ewoaf on Oct 4, 2020 5:22:42 GMT -7
The obvious aside, here's my take.
The cut of the shirt leaves a bit to be desired, and if you're really interested in discovering what correct feels like, I encourage you to start there. I can't see much, but from what I can gather, the cuffs are way too long. All 18thc shirt cuffs are no longer than an inch max. Most about as wide enough to hold the cuff buttons. It also looks like a cotton fabric that's too stiff, but maybe I'm wrong. You'll also notice in originals the structure around the shoulders contain multiple rectangles that strengthen the most vulnerable areas. To me this really changes the way a proper fitting shirt feels.
Hat or head scarf... Pick one, preferably the hat. Looking like Steve van Zant from the E Street band is a reenactorism, while historically there's really nothing to back it up.
The cut of the weskit seems rather large and early. The armscye are huge, so it would probably feel and fit much better if it was a bit more tailored to you.
You really need an overgarment, and moreso than a weskit. A coat or a jacket would be much more appropriate as men simply didn't go around without one unless the the rare occasion arose where they were engaged in very hot arduous work like farming or in a shop or something. It looks to me by the manner of your dress that these weren't taken on a very warm day, in fact I get the impression that you're trying to stay warm. When a coat and weskit were too much, it was common to leave off the weskit but keep the coat or jacket. Just as in our times they had warm clothes and summer clothes, so when it's warm you'll grab maybe an unlined worsted jacket rather than a lined and interfaced broadcloth coat. The point is coats/jackets are more important, and should be prioritized before a weskit.
My question is instead of trying to balance historically correct with modern function, why not just go perfectly historical? Because obvious considerations have to be made based on your chosen activity, you're obviously going to go astray from the correct, I get it. My method would be to simply go about my outfit and kit as correct as possible and then augment it with whatever the modern situation requires. You're obviously going to have to make a concession either way, so why not leave the outfit out of it? At the end of the day when the hunting is done, you'll still have a great outfit and set of kit.
Another method of wearing your orange could be with a knit cap. I think I've seen knit caps for hunting. They were popular then too, and you'd be less likely to see it.
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Post by brokennock on Oct 7, 2020 6:45:33 GMT -7
Sorry for the delay in response. I have been trying to think of how to address your various good points. I am still struggling sometimes with maintaining my train of thought when responding to multiple points in a message. On my phone, which is how I usually access this forum, I can not see the reply I am replying to. So I had to wait to sit at my laptop (which I've been avoiding). I also have not had time to gather then copy and paste some of the documentation I've seen in years past. I'll start there. I am really not sure if any of the documentation I remember seeing specifically mentions wearing a head scarf under a hat, but, I do remember seeing a lot more descriptions of men wearing a head scarf than many want to give credit for. In my case there are practical reasons for it, It helps keep the hat cleaner is a minor one, I wear one under even modern hats when I hunt in order to keep the glare from my completely shaved head from looking like a beacon of light when I take my hat off, It also allows me to wear a slightly larger hat without the hat slipping around as I notice I often get a headache with a snug hat. I will try to round up the quotes and descriptions I've read in the past. I am sure many of them came from Spence, maybe he can beat me to it.
As far as temperature and warmth, I was trying to put together a cooler outfit for warmer weather hunting. This would up just right for stalking slowly on the day the pics were taken. Unfortunately it would have been too warm in much warmer temps, and was a little warm even without the hat when I started moving big pieces of the blowdown that I am preparing as a blind. Essentially you are correct about the shirt. The cotton is heavier and stiffer than I might have liked. In hindsight I think the cut and style was intended as more French than English. But, I really wasn't sure how the dye job would go and didn't want to risk a more expensive shirt. If I were to pursue this again in the future I would wait till I was sure the dye was the correct hunter orange and I would get a much lighter weight linen shirt.
A knit hunter orange cap would be brutally hot and itchy this time of year.
You raise a good point about another layer, which also raises some questions in my mind but I'll as those later. I would love a linen or light wool frock coat, I do not have $300 or more dollars to spend on one, I also do not have the will or ability to make one. Just like a rifle kit can be $800 worth of parts turned into a $2,500 gun or into a $500 mess, the same can happen with fabric thread and buttons. I know my limitations.
Also, I have a hunting shirt, this would come in at the tail end of my persona's time period and that is okay, but, it leaves me back at square one regarding compliance with the state's hunter orange requirements. In cooler to cold weather I can wear the hunting shirt/rifleman's frock over my shirt and this or my wool waistcoat, and my hunter orange wool matchcoat over that. The matchcoat would be too warm right now and too bulky for the mission at hand.
I'm not sure anything can be done about tailoring the arm holes of the waistcoat at this point. It was purchased with the intent of it being "early" or 1750's-1760's.
I agree with you completely on much of your tailoring observations. I'm just not sure what I can really do about it. Also, one of the questions, not just for you specifically, that this brings to my head is about tailoring and fit for the commoner or those living at the edges of society. While much clothing was made for the person wearing it, either by a tailor or family member, resulting in a good fit, theoretically, was this always the case? I'm sure many wore "hand-me-downs" or used clothing. Bodies change over time and not always expanding, throw away a perfectly good garment because a bunch of weight and muscle was lost while sick? I doubt it. I wonder if the "proper fitted" garment might not easily be over-represented for people who would be of limited means, and/or for those who would spend little if any time amongst the rest of society.
On this same vein, over garments. Jacket or coat over or instead of waistcoat when in the settlements, even on one's farm or mill at the edge of town, anywhere the women folk might show up, no doubt. Even when one has wandered off one's farm for a day of hunting, most likely would stay "properly dressed." The loner (while a very rare breed at the time I'm told) living alone just at the very edge of settlement and spending most of his time on his own either in the woods or tending what little crops he needed for his own survival, probably didn't care. He probably would have put on his waistcoat with a coat over that when he had company, if ever, and on the occasional trip to town or settlement, but, I seriously doubt he would bother to take off both frock coat/overcoat and waistcoat just to put the out coat back on when he was too warm in the woods. I could be wrong, it is just something I question in my mind.
"My question is instead of trying to balance historically correct with modern function, why not just go perfectly historical? Because obvious considerations have to be made based on your chosen activity, you're obviously going to go astray from the correct, I get it. My method would be to simply go about my outfit and kit as correct as possible and then augment it with whatever the modern situation requires. You're obviously going to have to make a concession either way, so why not leave the outfit out of it? At the end of the day when the hunting is done, you'll still have a great outfit and set of kit."
I'd love to go "perfectly historical" but I see two problems with that. 1st is that it will take time, I can't attain that overnight, hopefully someday. Second is a lack of solid evidence on what is truly historically correct. What is overrepresented, what is underrepresented? What don't we know, yet? Also I don't, and have not intention to (at this time), present to the public. I come as close as I can and try to have explanations for what is right and wrong in case I encounter a curious modern person, but right now I do this for me. I'd still like to get and have better, but, this is where I find myself now. It has been long ust getting here, with a lot further to go, and sometimes it seems the further along this road I get, the longer the road gets.
I feel I've written too much and still missed stuff. If some words don't make sense, try adding the letter k, that key isn't working so well and I may have missed where some were left out.
Thank you for your valuable input.
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Me thinks this bloke would not last long in hostile country.
