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Post by artificer on Jul 9, 2022 22:04:27 GMT -7
Let’s begin with some historical background Double loop buckles, which were very popular for belts in the 18th century, began to be rather commonly worn around 1350 in London. Talk about a LONG period where this style buckle was in fashion! More historic buckle types and general dates in the link below. finds.org.uk/counties/findsrecordingguides/buckles/#Double-loop_framesThough brass “pins” as noted in the link above or what we would call “tongues,” show up fairly commonly in early buckles, this does not seem to have been the case in the 18th century. Of course, the older the belt buckles, the more common it would have been for only the rich to have brass buckles. I can’t document this yet, but my theory is when brass buckles became more common for the lower classes in the 18th century, they used Iron Tongues to keep the cost down. Brass was fairly expensive in England for the first half of the 18th century. This because the higher grades of copper ore that were able to be surface mined had pretty much dried up two to three centuries before. So, England was forced to buy most of their copper and thus often brass from the continent. Belgium, Spain, Nordic countries, and France (when Britain was not at war with them) seem to have been the primary sources. Spain had the highest grades of copper ore, but Belgium seems to have been the largest source of brass for Europe and for most of the 18th century. Then in the early 18th century, the Welsh came up with a new smelting process to economically smelt lower grades of copper, this became known as the Swansea process. In the 1740's, new technology was invented for water pumps for deep hole mining that began to be used for copper mines late in that decade. By the 1750's with both of these new technologies, England began producing large quantities of Copper and then brass for the first time in centuries. This meant a big reduction in the price of copper for a short period until it began to be used to copper sheath all British Military ship hulls in the 1780's through the end of the century. Much more coming, but this is a good beginning. Gus |
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Post by artificer on Jul 9, 2022 22:19:56 GMT -7
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Post by artificer on Jul 10, 2022 11:08:20 GMT -7
Excavated Buckles in this post The first of the next two links is called “Military Artifact of Spanish Shipwrecks” and www.artifacts.org/Fleetpage.htmThe second is “Spanish Military Buckles of the Floridas and Louisiana, circa. 1700 – 1821” www.artifacts.org/Bucklepage.htmThough the above have been identified generally as “Military,” some of the buckles are identified as having been worn by civilians as well. Some that are not identified as also possibly “civilian” would have been commonly worn. Buckles like the above could have been traded with the French in Louisiana and even carried up the Mississippi for trade with French Settlers. From Fort Ligonier. I think Number 7 is brass and the four in Number 5 are Iron. Can’t be sure, though, and the text doesn’t mention what they are made from. ia801609.us.archive.org/BookReader/BookReaderImages.php?zip=/25/items/annalsofcarnegi421970carn/annalsofcarnegi421970carn_jp2.zip&file=annalsofcarnegi421970carn_jp2/annalsofcarnegi421970carn_0123.jp2&id=annalsofcarnegi421970carn&scale=4&rotate=0From Fort Stanwix. (Fort Stanwix was a colonial fortress whose construction commenced on August 26, 1758, under the direction of British General John Stanwix, at the location of present-day Rome, New York, but was not completed until about 1762.) Most appear to be brass, though I think “I” and “J” are Iron. www.nps.gov/parkhistory/online_books/archeology/14/images/fig51.jpgFigure 51. a, Type 2a knee buckle from the north casemate, Level II; b, Type 2b knee buckle from the north casemate, Level IV; c, Type 2d knee buckle from the sally port, Level III; d, Type 2c spur buckle from the north ditch, Level I; e, Type 3a buckles from the bridge area, Level XI, the east scarp, Level II and the north casemate, Level II; f, Type 3c buckle from the east casemate, Level I; g, Type 3d buckle from Feature 57, Level IV; h, Type 4 stock buckle from the southwest casemate, Level II; i, Type 5a belt buckle from the east scarp, Level II; j, Type 5b harness buckle from the east casemate, Level I; k, Type 6 sword belt buckle from the north casemate, Level II; l, Type 7a baldrick buckle from the north casemate, Level III; m, Type 7d belt buckles from Feature 3, Level I and the sally port, Level II; n, Type 7e sling buckle from the sally port, Level II; p, Type 8a buckle from the north casemate, Level I; q, Type 8b buckle from the north casemate, Level IV; r, Type 9 harness buckle from the southeast casemate, Level I; s, Type 10 decorative silver buckle from the sally port, Level II. www.nps.gov/parkhistory/online_books/archeology/14/chap4.htmBuckles Excavated from Mount Vernon Slave Quarters encyclopediavirginia.org/9653hpr-560b31c4d437837/Bat Wing Buckles
OK, I fully admit I don’t feel I have a great handle on these buckles. Some folks have suggested these are harness buckles. If so and because of their size, they would have to be girth strap buckles, which to my mind makes no sense. Why have this fancy of a buckle that would not normally be seen? Leaving that aside, it seems everyone of these buckles came from AWI Military Sites. I’m thinking these were waist belt buckles for sword belts, but they might also have been for over the shoulder belts. I just don’t know. www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/revolutionary-war-bat-wing-buckle-1788461599Another: www.metaldetectingworld.com/photogalary/buckels/pages/b6.htmHalf of one as found: www.metaldetectingworld.com/metal_detecting_new_york_p9.shtmlAnother buckle that seems to have only come from AWI sites and may have been for waist belt buckles for sword belts or for over the shoulder belts. I’m not sure if the second link is the same as the first and one has been cleaned and the other not? www.metaldetectingworld.com/photogalary/buckels/pages/b5.htmand www.metaldetectingworld.com/photogalary/buckels/pages/b3.htmFinally, a buckle I think was for girth straps on saddles. www.metaldetectingworld.com/metal_detecting_new_york_p7.shtmlI think the above buckle is the same thing our own Keith mentioned in this blog of his: woodsrunnersdiary.blogspot.com/2012/09/belt-and-strap-buckles-part-two.htmlGus |
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RyanAK
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Once scalped…
Posts: 972
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Post by RyanAK on Jul 10, 2022 12:09:07 GMT -7
Gus… I don’t want you to think you’re talking to yourself! Lots of great info. Just haven’t had a chance to respond appropriately… yet.
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Post by artificer on Jul 10, 2022 12:22:32 GMT -7
Some suppliers of REPRO brass buckles that you may or may not have heard of before: NOTE: I have NO connection at all with any of the following suppliers. G. Gedney Godwin. I have bought a whole bunch of buckles and other things from his father and him since the 1970's and was always well pleased with any item I ever ordered. However, in more recent years, the selection is not as varied as it used to be. www.gggodwin.com/Buckles_c_24.htmlSmiling Fox Forge. A more recent Sutler than Godwin, though they seem to have taken over the selection Godwin once had. I've used several of their buckles, though I've sometimes changed the tongues. smilingfoxforge.com/shop/index.php?id_category=17&controller=categoryCrazy Crow Trading Post. I have also been doing business with them since the mid 1970's and was well pleased with most of the items I purchased. HOWEVER, I can only recommend the top three buckles on this page as being HCPC for the 18th century. I recommend AGAINST most of what they call utility brass buckles unless you can document them. www.crazycrow.com/nickel-brass-and-forged-iron-utility-buckles/?CatListingOffset=0&Offset=0&Per_Page=12&Sort_By=disp_orderThe Quartermaster General. I'm not sure how long they have been around, but I've been very impressed with some items they seem to have that no one else has. I've ordered and have been well pleased with the few items I've ordered. What I really like about their buckle selection is they often give historic information when they have it. thequartermastergeneral.com/store/Buckles?page={page}Tailor and Arms. I've saved the most unusual one for the last. Now I'm not sure how many folks might be interested in 18th Century Swedish/Nordic Brass Buckles, but if you are, here's one for you. Vhttps://www.tailorandarms.com/product-category/spanne/ Gus
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Post by artificer on Jul 10, 2022 12:28:40 GMT -7
Gus… I don’t want you to think you’re talking to yourself! Lots of great info. Just haven’t had a chance to respond appropriately… yet. Well, I do often talk to myself and have been doing so for years. LOL. I just wanted to pass on some information I hope others may find useful. Thank you for your kind words. Gus |
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Post by brokennock on Jul 10, 2022 14:32:02 GMT -7
Some suppliers of REPRO brass buckles that you may or may not have heard of before: NOTE: I have NO connection at all with any of the following suppliers. G. Gedney Godwin. I have bought a whole bunch of buckles and other things from his father and him since the 1970's and was always well pleased with any item I ever ordered. However, in more recent years, the selection is not as varied as it used to be. www.gggodwin.com/Buckles_c_24.htmlSmiling Fox Forge. A more recent Sutler than Godwin, though they seem to have taken over the selection Godwin once had. I've used several of their buckles, though I've sometimes changed the tongues. smilingfoxforge.com/shop/index.php?id_category=17&controller=categoryCrazy Crow Trading Post. I have also been doing business with them since the mid 1970's and was well pleased with most of the items I purchased. HOWEVER, I can only recommend the top three buckles on this page as being HCPC for the 18th century. I recommend AGAINST most of what they call utility brass buckles unless you can document them. www.crazycrow.com/nickel-brass-and-forged-iron-utility-buckles/?CatListingOffset=0&Offset=0&Per_Page=12&Sort_By=disp_orderThe Quartermaster General. I'm not sure how long they have been around, but I've been very impressed with some items they seem to have that no one else has. I've ordered and have been well pleased with the few items I've ordered. What I really like about their buckle selection is they often give historic information when they have it. thequartermastergeneral.com/store/Buckles?page={page}Tailor and Arms. I've saved the most unusual one for the last. Now I'm not sure how many folks might be interested in 18th Century Swedish/Nordic Brass Buckles, but if you are, here's one for you. Vhttps://www.tailorandarms.com/product-category/spanne/ Gus I've ordered from Smiling Fox and Quartermaster General and been happy with both. If I'm not mistaken, and this is from memory, Quartermaster lists the source/locatio of the original buckle artifact used to create the buckle. |
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Post by artificer on Jul 10, 2022 15:48:04 GMT -7
Yep, since I've been looking at and purchasing these buckles for so long, the ones I remember having read where they came from and the buckles Quartermaster General lists, their information is spot on. Now I can't verify every last one, as I don't trust my memory that far, but the ones I remember - they definitely got it right, so I would tend to trust what they wrote on the others.
Gus
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RyanAK
City-dweller
Once scalped…
Posts: 972
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Post by RyanAK on Jul 10, 2022 19:12:42 GMT -7
Gus, have you come across anything on hat buckles? Or have an impression on general belt or shoulder strap widths? This work is valuable for those of us that see importance in period material culture. Well done, friend.
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Post by artificer on Jul 11, 2022 3:21:33 GMT -7
Gus, have you come across anything on hat buckles? Or have an impression on general belt or shoulder strap widths? This work is valuable for those of us that see importance in period material culture. Well done, friend. Hi Ryan, Don't mean to give you short shrift, but I don't think I've ever come across any 18th century hat buckles. I'm pretty sure that went out as a common or fashion statement in the 17th century. Now I'm not saying it wasn't done in the 18th century, but I don't think it was anywhere close to being common and more likely very unusual at best. As far as general waist belt sizes and especially for civilians, I defer to the research James Rogers has done. He has written that 1 1/4" to 1 5/8" with an average of 1 3/8" to 1 1/2", though some went as wide as 1 3/4". Did belt sizes widen even more on the frontier? It's possible, but darn hard to impossible to document. On shoulder strap widths, are you talking about military or civilian? If civilian and if you mean for shot pouch straps, small "day" pouch strap widths went 1" to 1 1/4". Personally, I like a little larger bag than some and I like a little wider strap going from 1 3/8" to 1 1/2". Shoulder Straps for Military Cartouche Pouches were insanely large close to and during the FIW as evidenced by the David Morier Grenadier paintings like the one below. They went from 3" to some gigantic ones as wide as 3 1/2". www.britishbattles.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/AAA-51-Grenadiers-1st-and-3rd-Regiments-of-Foot-Guards-and-Coldstream-Guards-1751-c.jpgShoulder Straps for Military Cartouche Pouches even during the FIW then began to be made less wide and wound up around 1 3/4" to at most 2" by the AWI. Shoulder belts for bayonets went down to 1 3/4" wide then as well. Sword Baldrics went down to 2" to 2 1/2" wide between the FIW and AWI and some were only 1 3/4" by the AWI. Of course, one must check the individual Regiments for belt/shoulder strap widths between the FIW and AWI because they could go outside the general widths somewhat. Gus |
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RyanAK
City-dweller
Once scalped…
Posts: 972
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Post by RyanAK on Jul 11, 2022 6:00:09 GMT -7
Wow. Well done, Gus. Re:hat buckles. I only ask because I HAVE come across some runaway ads mentioning a hat buckle. These were typically mid-18th c. And being a runaway, was likely wearing some older clothes.
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Post by artificer on Jul 11, 2022 9:28:35 GMT -7
Wow. Well done, Gus. Re:hat buckles. I only ask because I HAVE come across some runaway ads mentioning a hat buckle. These were typically mid-18th c. And being a runaway, was likely wearing some older clothes. Interesting. The only thing I can GUESS is they used what was called a small strap buckle. Maybe something like an old breeches buckle used on the ends of the legs? This might be a great question for Spence, to see if he has anything on hat buckles? Gus |
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Post by spence on Jul 11, 2022 10:22:00 GMT -7
Gus said, "Well, I do often talk to myself and have been doing so for years. LOL."
"I was talking aloud to myself. A habit of the old: they choose the wisest person present to speak to; the long explanations needed by the young are wearying." Gandalf, The Lord of the Rings, The Two Towers, J. R. R Tolkien
Spence
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Post by lenapej on Jul 15, 2022 17:15:29 GMT -7
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RyanAK
City-dweller
Once scalped…
Posts: 972
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Post by RyanAK on Jul 15, 2022 18:21:59 GMT -7
Well done, J!!
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