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Post by artificer on Aug 17, 2022 18:41:44 GMT -7
From Virginia: "Col. Phil also enjoyed hunting. The inventory of his possessions included "1 Rifle new made by Turvey" and "1 new Turvey," as well as a fowling piece and a gun.57 The rifle and unspecified firearm were probably made by gunsmith William Turvey (II) of London. Most Virginia planters purchased locally-made rifles, but Col. Phil had sent to London to acquire one of the best rifles available at the time. Much more accurate than those made in the colonies, this rifle was used for recreational game hunting and target matches. Turvey rifles were elegant, artistic pieces, and an obvious status symbol in the colonies.58" 57. Philip Ludwell Lee inventory in Wyrick, "Site Precis." 58. Personal communication, Wallace Gusler and Jay Gaynor, March 1992. www.geni.com/people/Philip-Ludwell-Lee-of-Stratford-Hall/6000000001180342386 Probably similar to the Kit Jim Chambers sells as the "English Gentleman's Sporting Rifle": www.flintlocks.com/rifles05.htmGus I have a photo of a Turvey 'park rifle' that I'll add to this thread. They became popular when Hanover came to power in Britain among estate owners and I do believe the Chambers kit is based on the Turvey in RCA Vol. I. I'm not sure what would make them "much more accurate than those made in the colonies"... Because of the wealth of their family, "Col. Phil's" rifle was probably at least "1st Quality," if not "Best Quality" and that's why such rifles would have been more accurate than the average rifle made in America during the time period, unless the American gunsmith was importing the same quality components. I won't say it was impossible, but it would have been extremely difficult for an American Gunsmith to equal the quality of the components of the English or German made rifles in these grades, again unless most of the components were imported. This because gunsmithing was broken down into at least 13 to as many as 21 separate trades in England and the Continent. For example, someone working at a barrel making shop in England had much, MUCH more experience at making barrels than most, if not all American Gunsmiths. This would have made their barrels of higher quality as to the metallurgy and maybe the boring. American gunsmiths with the tools of the time could finish ream such barrels to the same high standards as the Continent, but they didn't get the same kind of wealthy customers nearly as often as found in Europe, so they would not have had the same amount of experience doing it. Lock Making in the Colonies was very, VERY limited until the AWI and almost every lock on American guns was imported from Europe until that time. English and Continental gun makers had their best lock smiths make the locks on the higher quality guns. Same things go for mold makers and maybe, if not probably selecting molds that better fit the rifle bores, if not finish reaming the barrel bores better for the selected mold sizes. Gus
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Post by paranger on Aug 18, 2022 4:42:13 GMT -7
Because the rifle was not a part of the English firearms culture during the first three quarters of the 18th century,.... Maybe not that early. I’ve frequently been confused about the relation of the English to rifles. They are rightly admired for their long history of expertise with smoothbores, but they seem to have resisted rifle culture until dragged into it. I was very surprised when I read this book: Scloppetaria: or Considerations on the nature and use of rifled barrel guns, with reference to their forming the basis of a permanent system of national defence, agreeable to the genius of the country, by Capt. Henry Beaufroy, 1808 [Henry Benjamin Hanbury Beaufroy] Originally published as “Scloppetaria, by a Corporal of Riflemen”. The author said: “It is but within these last few years that the rifle has been generally known in this country, although in Germany, Switzerland and most parts of the continent, it was in common use.” “Who, five years ago, when Rifles were just coming into notice, would have credited the assertion, one telling him that, with practice, 300 yards would be an almost certain distance? And yet we now see men among us firing successfully from the shoulder, at distances which before were scarcely ever attempted even from a rest?” books.google.com/books?id=AO9eAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA158&lpg=PA158&dq=scloppetaria&source=bl&ots=7enOhVnOsn&sig=fCRtLke9Q4eamuLKko1N5Ap7I6g&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjDmIWi_q7NAhUFOCYKHUHBBwMQ6AEIUTAN#v=onepage&q=scloppetaria&f=falseJust coming into notice in 1803? Didn’t they notice them 20+ years before when Britain was losing her American colonies? Maybe it’s an example of what the wag meant when he said, "The way to give an Englishman a chuckle in his old age is to tell him a joke when he's young." Spence And yet the British were exporting trade rifles like this one to their loyalist and native allies as early as the AWI... www.nramuseum.org/guns/the-galleries/a-prospering-new-republic-1780-to-1860/case-8-romance-of-the-long-rifle/london-made-copy-of-lancaster-flintlock-rifle.aspx
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RyanAK
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Post by RyanAK on Aug 18, 2022 6:15:57 GMT -7
I have a photo of a Turvey 'park rifle' that I'll add to this thread. They became popular when Hanover came to power in Britain among estate owners and I do believe the Chambers kit is based on the Turvey in RCA Vol. I. I'm not sure what would make them "much more accurate than those made in the colonies"... Because of the wealth of their family, "Col. Phil's" rifle was probably at least "1st Quality," if not "Best Quality" and that's why such rifles would have been more accurate than the average rifle made in America during the time period, unless the American gunsmith was importing the same quality components. I won't say it was impossible, but it would have been extremely difficult for an American Gunsmith to equal the quality of the components of the English or German made rifles in these grades, again unless most of the components were imported. This because gunsmithing was broken down into at least 13 to as many as 21 separate trades in England and the Continent. For example, someone working at a barrel making shop in England had much, MUCH more experience at making barrels than most, if not all American Gunsmiths. This would have made their barrels of higher quality as to the metallurgy and maybe the boring. American gunsmiths with the tools of the time could finish ream such barrels to the same high standards as the Continent, but they didn't get the same kind of wealthy customers nearly as often as found in Europe, so they would not have had the same amount of experience doing it. Lock Making in the Colonies was very, VERY limited until the AWI and almost every lock on American guns was imported from Europe until that time. English and Continental gun makers had their best lock smiths make the locks on the higher quality guns. Same things go for mold makers and maybe, if not probably selecting molds that better fit the rifle bores, if not finish reaming the barrel bores better for the selected mold sizes. Gus I think it's well established that colonial gunmakers were essentially 'assembling' rifles, rather than building locks and making barrels. I always enjoy your quote stating that the complete gun an apprentice made at the end of his apprenticeship was likely the only complete gun of self-made parts that a gunmaker was likely to build. So then, if using imported locks and riffled barrels of at least good quality, where does the inherent advantage in accuracy of a fine English riffle come from? My impression, which admittedly may be an incorrect assumption on my part, is that "1st Quality" and "Best Quality" etc. were more along the lines of fit, finish and adornment. Again, my impression, but I'd think that even a 'cheap' rifle barrel was still a pretty fine component considering what was required to make it, compared to say the difference between a trade gun barrel and a fine Spanish fowling gun barrel. Not being argumentative, just trying to learn. Mold making is something I hadn't considered, but rings true to me. Something I'll need to follow up on eventually.
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RyanAK
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Post by RyanAK on Aug 18, 2022 6:29:00 GMT -7
Maybe not that early. I’ve frequently been confused about the relation of the English to rifles. They are rightly admired for their long history of expertise with smoothbores, but they seem to have resisted rifle culture until dragged into it. I was very surprised when I read this book: Scloppetaria: or Considerations on the nature and use of rifled barrel guns, with reference to their forming the basis of a permanent system of national defence, agreeable to the genius of the country, by Capt. Henry Beaufroy, 1808 [Henry Benjamin Hanbury Beaufroy] Originally published as “Scloppetaria, by a Corporal of Riflemen”. The author said: “It is but within these last few years that the rifle has been generally known in this country, although in Germany, Switzerland and most parts of the continent, it was in common use.” “Who, five years ago, when Rifles were just coming into notice, would have credited the assertion, one telling him that, with practice, 300 yards would be an almost certain distance? And yet we now see men among us firing successfully from the shoulder, at distances which before were scarcely ever attempted even from a rest?” books.google.com/books?id=AO9eAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA158&lpg=PA158&dq=scloppetaria&source=bl&ots=7enOhVnOsn&sig=fCRtLke9Q4eamuLKko1N5Ap7I6g&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjDmIWi_q7NAhUFOCYKHUHBBwMQ6AEIUTAN#v=onepage&q=scloppetaria&f=falseJust coming into notice in 1803? Didn’t they notice them 20+ years before when Britain was losing her American colonies? Maybe it’s an example of what the wag meant when he said, "The way to give an Englishman a chuckle in his old age is to tell him a joke when he's young." Spence And yet the British were exporting trade rifles like this one to their loyalist and native allies as early as the AWI... www.nramuseum.org/guns/the-galleries/a-prospering-new-republic-1780-to-1860/case-8-romance-of-the-long-rifle/london-made-copy-of-lancaster-flintlock-rifle.aspxSpence's find is fascinating and yet raises more questions. The British military weren't unfamiliar with rifles having experience with Provincial, Indian and Ranger use in the French & Indian War. German units and the opposing Continentals in the AWI. Ferguson. Now, I haven't yet read the piece Spence linked to, so I don't know where Beaufroy is coming from... but we do well to remember that the British Empire was vast, and North America but a small backwater on the world stage. If Beaufroy's tenure was on the Continent, or in India, his personal impression of rifle use would certainly be different than an officer that spent time with Forbes or Burgoyne in America.
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RyanAK
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Post by RyanAK on Aug 18, 2022 6:30:59 GMT -7
I've located some interesting European rifles with assumed use in North America. I need to scan some photos, then I'll post. Pretty neat stuff.
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Post by paranger on Aug 18, 2022 6:54:54 GMT -7
Then of course there was the so-called 1776 pattern British rifle adopted specifically for military service in N.America, with 800 produced in England, and 200 more in Hanover... bantarleton.tumblr.com/post/183072339855/the-pattern-1776-rifle-the-british-armys-firstWhile 1000 rifles may seem at first blush to be a drop in the proverbial bucket, consider R. Arthur Bowler's estimated average British troop strength of 30-35,000 (including allies) from 1776-1781. Then add an estimated 500+ German rifle-armed jaegers from Hesse-Cassel, Hesse-Hanau, and Bruswick, plus an unknown number of loyalists using their own rifles like their Whig counterparts. This adds up to the hypothetical potential of 1 in 20 British allied troops being rifle armed! How many modern armies have 1 in 20 soldiers with sniper or designated marksman weapons? Now, do I think the actual petcentage was that high? Likely not, but it demonstrates that rifles were something more than an afterthought for the British Army in the fourth quarter of the 18th century.
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Post by artificer on Aug 18, 2022 9:01:14 GMT -7
Because of the wealth of their family, "Col. Phil's" rifle was probably at least "1st Quality," if not "Best Quality" and that's why such rifles would have been more accurate than the average rifle made in America during the time period, unless the American gunsmith was importing the same quality components. I won't say it was impossible, but it would have been extremely difficult for an American Gunsmith to equal the quality of the components of the English or German made rifles in these grades, again unless most of the components were imported. This because gunsmithing was broken down into at least 13 to as many as 21 separate trades in England and the Continent. For example, someone working at a barrel making shop in England had much, MUCH more experience at making barrels than most, if not all American Gunsmiths. This would have made their barrels of higher quality as to the metallurgy and maybe the boring. American gunsmiths with the tools of the time could finish ream such barrels to the same high standards as the Continent, but they didn't get the same kind of wealthy customers nearly as often as found in Europe, so they would not have had the same amount of experience doing it. Lock Making in the Colonies was very, VERY limited until the AWI and almost every lock on American guns was imported from Europe until that time. English and Continental gun makers had their best lock smiths make the locks on the higher quality guns. Same things go for mold makers and maybe, if not probably selecting molds that better fit the rifle bores, if not finish reaming the barrel bores better for the selected mold sizes. Gus I think it's well established that colonial gunmakers were essentially 'assembling' rifles, rather than building locks and making barrels. I always enjoy your quote stating that the complete gun an apprentice made at the end of his apprenticeship was likely the only complete gun of self-made parts that a gunmaker was likely to build. So then, if using imported locks and riffled barrels of at least good quality, where does the inherent advantage in accuracy of a fine English riffle come from? My impression, which admittedly may be an incorrect assumption on my part, is that "1st Quality" and "Best Quality" etc. were more along the lines of fit, finish and adornment. Again, my impression, but I'd think that even a 'cheap' rifle barrel was still a pretty fine component considering what was required to make it, compared to say the difference between a trade gun barrel and a fine Spanish fowling gun barrel. Not being argumentative, just trying to learn. Mold making is something I hadn't considered, but rings true to me. Something I'll need to follow up on eventually. Good questions. OK, as the British and Continental Gunmakers making better barrels, we have to first consider what they were made from and how they were made. Of course, barrels were made from Iron but were there different grades of Iron barrels? Yup. What made them different? The more the iron was heated and rolled or heated and hammer beaten to refine it, the lower amount of slag was left in the Iron. The more highly refined barrels had the least amount of slag, which allowed better/more uniform barrel vibrations and thus better accuracy. Now, they didn't explain it that way in the period, but they most certainly were aware that the more the Iron was refined, it made the barrels stronger and better. Also, with less slag in the Iron, the barrels didn't wear through into a hidden pocket of slag or need "freshening" of the rifling or bore diameters as much. www.flintriflesmith.com/WritingandResearch/WebArticles/ironandsteel.htmThe English and Continental Barrel Makers had factory shops set up to make barrels and that included water powered rolling mills and trip hammers to more highly refine the Iron. Now I'm not going to say it was impossible to refine Iron in an American gunsmith's forge to the quality that the European Factories could do it, but it wasn't economical to do it. Most American gunsmiths did not have water powered rolling mills and hammers to refine the Iron that much. Those who worked in European Factory Shops by experience learned how to refine the Iron Barrels much, MUCH better. Now here's something Very Few people know about. Gunsmiths used paper, between the long square final barrel reamers and the wooden rods that held them. The more uniform the paper, the more uniform the barrel was reamed. We have to remember paper was "hand laid" in the period and came in varying qualities and how uniform in thickness. Now I'm not saying American Gunsmiths did not have the ability to import the best and most uniform paper to do this, but there is no documentation I've found they did. European Barrel makers had the easiest access to the best quality paper to do this. We will touch on period paper more later. Spence has done a grand job of documenting how period molds may not have actually cast a really uniform ball. European Makers in their factories were set up to make more uniform molds that cast more uniform balls. Again, when that is all or the primary thing one makes, the workers in your factory get really good at it. Though they didn't have precision calipers to check the balls as cast, they did remarkably well with standard calipers. (BTW, my Grandfather who was taught to be a machinist before and after WW1, had a remarkable selection of different types of standard calipers that were plain, non-measuring types. So they were still used long after Brown and Sharpe made the first affordable and recordable calipers to a reading of .001" in the 1840's.) It is well documented in the period they used the term "windage" when talking about the difference between the size of the ball and the size bore in the period. However, even in the few period accounts made on the subject, it doesn't document how they chose the fit of the size of the ball to the size of bore. They knew that too loose fitting of the ball in a rifle did not give the best accuracy, but I have yet to read how they determined that. My CONJECTURE from studying period gunsmithing is they COULD have done that by wrapping paper around the ball and see how it fit in the bore and how many wraps of paper could be wrapped around the ball and it still went in the bore. Matter of fact, my further conjecture is at least on the better/best made rifles, they actually took a cast ball from a really good mold and then reamed the bore so it would fit that ball with the amount of paper wrapping they thought best. OK, so far I have talked about mechanical reasons for better accuracy. Now it's time to get into the psychological reasons. When I first got into making National Match Rifles almost a half century ago, I was a bit surprised the better they looked, the better accuracy shooters got out of them. Further, when shooters knew who had built or worked on them and the more they held the Armorer/Gunsmith in high esteem, the more accurate they shot those rifles. Of course, this is entirely psychological, but it is absolutely real today as I'm sure it was back then. Mostly what this comes from is the better the rifle looks, the more the shooter trusts the Gunsmith to have done everything to that quality when building a rifle. So I'm sure the higher quality guns with their better finish and made by a trusted Gunsmith in the period, caused them to shoot those rifles (and guns) more accurately. Gus
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RyanAK
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Post by RyanAK on Aug 18, 2022 10:08:30 GMT -7
I think it's well established that colonial gunmakers were essentially 'assembling' rifles, rather than building locks and making barrels. I always enjoy your quote stating that the complete gun an apprentice made at the end of his apprenticeship was likely the only complete gun of self-made parts that a gunmaker was likely to build. So then, if using imported locks and riffled barrels of at least good quality, where does the inherent advantage in accuracy of a fine English riffle come from? My impression, which admittedly may be an incorrect assumption on my part, is that "1st Quality" and "Best Quality" etc. were more along the lines of fit, finish and adornment. Again, my impression, but I'd think that even a 'cheap' rifle barrel was still a pretty fine component considering what was required to make it, compared to say the difference between a trade gun barrel and a fine Spanish fowling gun barrel. Not being argumentative, just trying to learn. Mold making is something I hadn't considered, but rings true to me. Something I'll need to follow up on eventually. Good questions. OK, as the British and Continental Gunmakers making better barrels, we have to first consider what they were made from and how they were made. Of course, barrels were made from Iron but were there different grades of Iron barrels? Yup. What made them different? The more the iron was heated and rolled or heated and hammer beaten to refine it, the lower amount of slag was left in the Iron. The more highly refined barrels had the least amount of slag, which allowed better/more uniform barrel vibrations and thus better accuracy. Now, they didn't explain it that way in the period, but they most certainly were aware that the more the Iron was refined, it made the barrels stronger and better. Also, with less slag in the Iron, the barrels didn't wear through into a hidden pocket of slag or need "freshening" of the rifling or bore diameters as much. www.flintriflesmith.com/WritingandResearch/WebArticles/ironandsteel.htmThe English and Continental Barrel Makers had factory shops set up to make barrels and that included water powered rolling mills and trip hammers to more highly refine the Iron. Now I'm not going to say it was impossible to refine Iron in an American gunsmith's forge to the quality that the European Factories could do it, but it wasn't economical to do it. Most American gunsmiths did not have water powered rolling mills and hammers to refine the Iron that much. Those who worked in European Factory Shops by experience learned how to refine the Iron Barrels much, MUCH better. Now here's something Very Few people know about. Gunsmiths used paper, between the long square final barrel reamers and the wooden rods that held them. The more uniform the paper, the more uniform the barrel was reamed. We have to remember paper was "hand laid" in the period and came in varying qualities and how uniform in thickness. Now I'm not saying American Gunsmiths did not have the ability to import the best and most uniform paper to do this, but there is no documentation I've found they did. European Barrel makers had the easiest access to the best quality paper to do this. We will touch on period paper more later. Spence has done a grand job of documenting how period molds may not have actually cast a really uniform ball. European Makers in their factories were set up to make more uniform molds that cast more uniform balls. Again, when that is all or the primary thing one makes, the workers in your factory get really good at it. Though they didn't have precision calipers to check the balls as cast, they did remarkably well with standard calipers. (BTW, my Grandfather who was taught to be a machinist before and after WW1, had a remarkable selection of different types of standard calipers that were plain, non-measuring types. So they were still used long after Brown and Sharpe made the first affordable and recordable calipers to a reading of .001" in the 1840's.) It is well documented in the period they used the term "windage" when talking about the difference between the size of the ball and the size bore in the period. However, even in the few period accounts made on the subject, it doesn't document how they chose the fit of the size of the ball to the size of bore. They knew that too loose fitting of the ball in a rifle did not give the best accuracy, but I have yet to read how they determined that. My CONJECTURE from studying period gunsmithing is they COULD have done that by wrapping paper around the ball and see how it fit in the bore and how many wraps of paper could be wrapped around the ball and it still went in the bore. Matter of fact, my further conjecture is at least on the better/best made rifles, they actually took a cast ball from a really good mold and then reamed the bore so it would fit that ball with the amount of paper wrapping they thought best. OK, so far I have talked about mechanical reasons for better accuracy. Now it's time to get into the psychological reasons. When I first got into making National Match Rifles almost a half century ago, I was a bit surprised the better they looked, the better accuracy shooters got out of them. Further, when shooters knew who had built or worked on them and the more they held the Armorer/Gunsmith in high esteem, the more accurate they shot those rifles. Of course, this is entirely psychological, but it is absolutely real today as I'm sure it was back then. Mostly what this comes from is the better the rifle looks, the more the shooter trusts the Gunsmith to have done everything to that quality when building a rifle. So I'm sure the higher quality guns with their better finish and made by a trusted Gunsmith in the period, caused them to shoot those rifles (and guns) more accurately. Gus Thanks, Gus. There's a lot there that I either didn't know or was only vaguely aware of. I won't argue the 'pretty shoots better' psychological point. I absolutely agree with the premise. But... if the rifles being stocked here were using imported European barrels rather than barrels made in the colonies (which I agree re:colonial barrels 1. was unlikely and 2. would be inferior to a European barrel) was there enough of a quality difference between the barrel on a Turvey and riffle barrels arriving in Philadelphia to be stocked here to have a dramatic impact on accuracy for the Turvey to be considered 'much more accurate'?
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Post by paranger on Aug 18, 2022 12:48:34 GMT -7
So let me see if I understand the thread accurately:
As I understand it, the assertion is that a British made rifle with a British barrel was likely more accurate than a colonial made rifle with a British barrel because the superior aesthetics of fit and finish on the British made rifle would have imparted a psychological advantage to the user?
Am I reading that right?
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Post by artificer on Aug 18, 2022 14:03:43 GMT -7
"But... if the rifles being stocked here were using imported European barrels rather than barrels made in the colonies (which I agree re:colonial barrels 1. was unlikely and 2. would be inferior to a European barrel) was there enough of a quality difference between the barrel on a Turvey and riffle barrels arriving in Philadelphia to be stocked here to have a dramatic impact on accuracy for the Turvey to be considered 'much more accurate'?"
OK, I can't speak for the author, but I ASSUME when the author wrote "rifles made in the colonies" - the author meant all the component parts of the rifle had been made in America. So it sounds like we agree on that point.
Now as to this more specific question of yours above, at best my answer has to be "it depended on where in Europe the barrel/s had been made and who made them." For example, Spanish and some Portuguese barrels were often considered the epitome of smooth barrels for much of the 18th century for "sporting" or "fowling" pieces and that even by many British Gunmakers, no less.
I honestly don't know if rifle barrels made in the Germanic States OR Switzerland and at least by some German or Swiss makers, were considered better than Turvey or British Barrels when the rifles from both places got up into the higher grades. So far, I've never run across anything that documents that. (I do know that both Switzerland and the German States were much more involved with higher levels of target shooting events than the British in earlier periods and I would love to read who they thought made the best barrels/guns at those large target shoots.) I assume that British barrel makers MAY and probably did have had a bit of catching up to do to German rifle barrels in early years, but I am not sure when that period might have been over. Further, since there were so few "park" rifles or rifles used by Estate Gamekeepers in the first half of the 18th century, I don't know how one would have made the comparison in the period.
Gus
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Post by artificer on Jul 9, 2023 15:52:00 GMT -7
More on Caspar Wistar's early importing rifles to Pennsylvania in the 2nd quarter of the 18th century. In 1730 [Caspar] Wistar established a trade connection with Georg Friedrich Hölzer, a family friend in the Palatinate. He ordered goods from Germany, which were then transported by German immigrants in their personal belongings in order to avoid British duties and then sold in his shop in Philadelphia. Using the immigrant transportation system for illicit trade was quite common among non-British immigrants at the time since the restrictions and duties imposed by the Navigation Acts were prohibitive. Although nowhere near as profitable as his land speculation, Wistar’s trade in imported commodities from the Rhine and Neckar Valleys represented an important step in his entrepreneurial and personal affairs. Establishing himself as the main supplier in an emerging market, he was able to furnish his fellow immigrants with specialized services since the items he imported (knives, scissors, needles, brass and iron goods, copper kettles, mirrors, eyeglasses, tobacco pipes, ivory combs, lace, and custom-made rifles) were not readily available in the colonies at the time. He only ordered high quality items and managed to attain market dominance in rifles by making sure his source in Germany was kept secret." www.immigrantentrepreneurship.org/entry.php?rec=1“Many gunsmiths may have spent much of their time repairing guns rather than creating new ones. There had long been a steady stream of imported guns into colonial America. Caspar Wistar imported German rifles in the 1730s and 1740s, asking his supplier to tailor them for the American market, where consumers “prefer rifles with barrels that are three feet and three to four inches long[26]
[26] Caspar Wistar to Georg Friederich Hölzer, October 1, 1737, in Rosalind Beiler, Immigrant and Entrepreneur: The Atlantic World of Caspar Wistar, 1650-1750 (University Park: Pennsylvania State University Press, 2008), 145-146.” www.immigrantentrepreneurship.org/entry.php?rec=180#_edn26Note: The rifle barrel lengths mentioned above were 39 to 40 inches long, not quite the 42 to 46 inch lengths they would eventually grow to, but longer to much longer than many traditional German Jaeger and some other Hunting rifles. “Caspar Wistar (1696-1752), who immigrated to Pennsylvania in 1717, imported more than fifty rifles, many especially tailored for the American market, from gunsmiths in Suhl and Rothenberg between 1731 and 1745.” From: JOHANN ANDREAS ALBRECHT: MAKING RIFLES IN EIGHTEENTH-CENTURY MORAVIAN ECONOMIES Scott Paul Gordon and www.immigrantentrepreneurship.org/entries/johann-andreas-albrecht/Gus
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RyanAK
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Post by RyanAK on Jul 9, 2023 16:28:09 GMT -7
Great stuff, Gus. I’ve tracked down additional info on the rifle in the first post. Specifically, what makes me feel that while it may not BE a Wistar import, it does have one defining feature of one: the barrel is 39-7/8” long and .65 caliber rifled.
I’ve also located a fascinating English imported rifle that reenforces my thought that many of the imported rifles ending up in the hands of Indians were something along the lines of a Type G with rifled barrel. Stay tuned…
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Post by artificer on Jul 9, 2023 17:02:42 GMT -7
I have asked on other forums and no one has yet found a rifle that could definitively be proven to have been imported by Caspar.
I'm also not sure what exactly to make of this info from the linked text above, "He only ordered high quality items." Since this writing is from a modern author and he doesn't footnote the info, I don't know if that was in the original documentation or not. I'm guessing Caspar ordered rather plain, but well-made rifles, because those would have been easier to sell. So, I could see something like the rifle you pictured having been at least similar to the rifles ordered by Caspar.
The wood "button" on the end of the ramrod on that rifle really intrigues me, as well. I'd sure like to know if that is the original ramrod that came with the rifle or a later replacement.
Gus
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RyanAK
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Post by RyanAK on Jul 9, 2023 17:28:52 GMT -7
From what I could find on that particular rifle, the ramrod tip is horn, and is supposed to be original. European rifles often were adorned with horn ramrod tips.
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Post by artificer on Jul 9, 2023 17:34:57 GMT -7
From what I could find on that particular rifle, the ramrod tip is horn, and is supposed to be original. European rifles often were adorned with horn ramrod tips. OK, that makes sense. I couldn't tell from the photo. Thank you. Gus
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