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Post by johnhalf on Jun 17, 2019 7:01:14 GMT -7
Hi Folks, i going to need a lot of mentoring. If i get too needy just let me know. First off what is a good well documented resource for the period from 1750ish to about 1790. There are a lot of books but some seem contradictory and most not well referenced. Then again i have not seen many. My current dilemma is about rifling. I am thinking i want my persona to be about 50 in 1775 but i love rifles. I have difficulty getting straight forward facts as to how many rifles there were (as opposed to smooth bore that is) in 1775 and how likely a fellow who had traveled quite a bit and ended up in MA would be to have one. Thanks for you help.
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Post by Black Hand on Jun 17, 2019 10:11:42 GMT -7
Rifling has existed in German guns since before the 1750's. That said, smoothbores were far more common in the 1750's for the Colonies. People far more knowledgeable than myself have mentioned a few(?) rifles that might exist from the 1760's (or before?), but by 1775, I'd lean towards rifles being far more common (Not certain about MA). Unfortunately, I can't give you a firmer answer than that and hope our local Master of Period Information (Spence - heck I'd give him a PhD in Period Information if it was up to me) will have a few quotes that will help clear this up... In the end - Yes, No and Maybe to your question. firearmshistory.blogspot.com/2010/05/rifling-history.htmlen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rifling
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Post by paranger on Jun 17, 2019 11:58:56 GMT -7
As BH said, WHERE you are in the colonies is important in answering your question. In Pennsylvania's back country where I live, rifles were fairlt common as early as the 1750s. Correspondence by Edward Shippen and Henry Bouquet repeatedly refers to rifle usage among F&I PA Provincials as well as Indians. In New England, by contrast, there is little evidence of rifle usage even as late as the Revolution.
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Post by Black Hand on Jun 17, 2019 12:09:37 GMT -7
WHERE you are in the colonies is important in answering your question. In Pennsylvania's back country where I live, rifles were fairlt common as early as the 1750s. Correspondence by Edward Shippen and Henry Bouquet repeatedly refers to rifle usage among F&I PA Provincials as well as Indians. In New England, by contrast, there is little evidence of rifle usage even as late as the Revolution.
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Post by spence on Jun 17, 2019 12:49:22 GMT -7
I can't be of much help on this one. I've found very little documentation for rifles in New England before the revolution. I know they were exposed to them in different ways in revolutionary times, but a lot of that is speculation on my part. Benedict Arnold's campaign to Quebec, for instance, traveled from Massachusetts Bay up through New Hampshire and Maine, and there were 3 companies of Pennsylvania riflemen as part of the group.
An excerpt from 'Rifles of Colonial America', vol I, by Dr. George Shumway. ''A few rifle-barreled guns were made in New England in the pre-Revolutionary decades, but these differ little from the typical smoothbore guns of the period made there. They were made without cheek-pieces, and the butt was curved downward in the fashion of French guns."
From a little later time: _Practical Instructions for Military Officers, for the District of Massachusetts_, Epaphras Hoyt, 1811
pg. 111 "The non commissioned officers and privates of rifle corps are to be armed with good rifle guns, the barrel of which should be from three to three and an half feet in length, and always kept brown."
I've come to believe the feeling I had early on that rifles were not common anywhere much before the revolution is incorrect. Just in my little collection of primary documents I have a large number of references to them at least back to the F&I war, of their being used in combat on both sides, of their being offered for retail sale, for gunsmithing services advertised for them, their being lost or stolen, etc. Some are quite early, indeed.
Inventory of the estate of Ralph Wormeley, 1702, included twenty-one guns, one of them a “Rifle Gun.” Middlesex County Will Book A (1698-1713) p. 128 [Va.]
The Pennsylvania Gazette September 20, 1739 RUN away on the 6th Inst. from Thomas Rees, of Heydelburg Township, Lancaster County, a Servant Lad, named Richard Beddes, aged about 17 Years, has light bushy Hair: Had on an old striped Jacket, old linnen Shirt, new Linnen Breeches and an old Hat, no Shoes nor Stockings. Took with him a smooth Rifle Gun.
Spence
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Post by brokennock on Jun 17, 2019 19:22:18 GMT -7
"I can't be of much help on this one. I've found very little documentation for rifles in New England before the revolution." - Spence
Sounds like help to me. And seems in line with what I've read and seen as general educated opinion. Rifles were not that uncommon back to and including the F.&I. from Pennsylvania south and west. New England? Maybe not so much, at least not in primary documentation. I have seen inferences to rifle use and ownership in what I would call either well researched, or contemporary to the period, historical fiction, in New England.
As has been said, the "where," in this question is as or more important than the when.
I can't remember which one it was, but one of the 1st hand accounts of an early actionof the F.&I. involving the capture of the author/subject of the work, mentions the natives being mostly armed with rifles. I think this was in Pennsylvania or Virginia.
I too really prefer a rifle so would love to find more concrete evidence of their use in New England between the F.&I. and the revolution. But, the evidence is what it is. I believe I've discussed this before in another thread here. But thinking this reply through has lead me to start another topic I've been pondering lately.
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Rifling
Jun 17, 2019 20:35:37 GMT -7
via mobile
Post by johnhalf on Jun 17, 2019 20:35:37 GMT -7
Thanks everyone! This fellow did spend some time in Pennslyvania, maybe he brought one back with him. Hmmmm. So not common but not out of the question either.
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Post by spence on Jun 17, 2019 21:49:47 GMT -7
Sir William Johnson, British Superintendent of Indian Affairs for the northern colonies, lived in New York state, in what was then Tryon and is now Montgomery county. His brother Warren visited him from England and kept a journal during his trip and visit, published as Warren Johnson's Journal 1760-61. He was definitely aware of rifles, especially those made in Philadelphia, and said so in his journal. "They are remarkable at Philadelphia for making rifled Barrell Gunns, which throw a Ball above 300 yards, vastly well, & much better than any other Barrells. People here in general Shoot very well with Ball, but don't doe much with Shot." I guess NY isn't New England, but at least it's further north than Pennsylvania. Spence
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Post by hawkeyes on Jun 19, 2019 14:11:34 GMT -7
Hello and welcome.
I personally have settled not into a personal persona but rather focusing on the details of the period that is an interest to me. In my opinion doing the research concerning everything around you during the particular time of intrest is very important. I've seen numerous individuals at living history events who skimp on the little details and those very little things kill the impression.
Your starting off in the right direction, a good smooth rifle though will cover a wide time range without question. My advice is to study up on everything you can, literally everything!
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Post by Black Hand on Jun 19, 2019 17:40:13 GMT -7
I personally have settled not into a personal persona but rather focusing on the details of the period that is an interest to me. In my opinion doing the research concerning everything around you during the particular time of interest is very important. I've seen numerous individuals at living history events who skimp on the little details and those very little things kill the impression. I like this response and have done something similar. I am very interested and focused on period skills, so much so that my persona is generic - generic in the sense that I portray a Native-inspired frontiersman and all that goes along with this persona. I try to learn anything that might be needed to achieve this goal... That said, due to my allergic response to horses, I doubt I'll be riding any in the future so this skill will be lost to me.
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Keith
City-dweller
Bushfire close but safe now. Getting some good rain.
Posts: 990
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Post by Keith on Jun 19, 2019 18:24:18 GMT -7
I think that in order to get the full picture, one has to go back in time before ones chosen period. I was born in 1680, in England to a Cymru Mother & an English Father. My Father was a wagoner. I left England to travel to the New World in 1700, when I was 20 years of age. This means that I could have taken with me items made in the 17th century, so not everything I own belongs to my period of interest, the mid 18th century. I have preferences from the 17th century & cultural baggage.
So many people look only at there chosen time period, & that is not really very realistic. I have some original 17th & 18th century items to this day that belonged to my Father, no doubt he got them from his Father. That is how it is now & must have been back then. Keith.
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Post by spence on Jun 19, 2019 20:30:18 GMT -7
My overriding interest in 're-enacting' is to experience as much as possible what the old boys might have experienced. My motto could well be, "Use the equipment they used and do the things they did, and many of your solutions and experiences will mirror theirs." That obviously involves learning some of their skills, and that's a big part of it, for me.
I have gone essentially solo, have never done 'events' except a couple of times years ago to see what they were all about. I have also never engaged in any kind of competition, not my thing,
I have chosen an individual persona, and put forth some effort to develop it in detail, but not for the purpose of trying to become that man or even to represent him directly. The persona, with its back story covering a period of time, is there to give me a framework to hang my efforts on. It answers the who, where, when, class status, education, financial situation, past history, etc., questions , and makes my activities appropriate to my age and interests. It concentrates my research efforts to a particular period, and that's critical.
As an example...I was an old man when I started doing living history, so I chose the persona of an old man. Hunting was required. I didn't want to do extended trips. I didn't want to include horses. I didn't want to do anything martial, I don't do war. So, my character is an old Scots-Irish widower who moved from Virginia in his declining years to live with his son and his family on the Kentucky frontier in the area of Logan's fort in the late 1770s. He wants to be useful to his family, so he hunts for them. His hunts are short range ones, he walks away from the cabin carrying what he needs for outings of only one or two days duration.
I also greatly enjoy 18th-century cooking, and those activities would be welcomed by my son's family, as would most anything I decide I want to explore in my fictitious everyman family.
As I've grown older in real life it has been easy to fit my changing capabilities into my tale...the old man would be doing the same.
Placing the experiences uppermost in my priorities means I don't have to be a 'stitch counter'. For example, my go-to gun is not totally HC/PC. It is a flintlock smoothbore of appropriate caliber, with a long barrel, curly maple stock of early configuration with wooden patchbox, alright, which are spot on for my time period, but it has iron furniture, a DOM tubing barrel of incorrect profile, has no carving or inlays, and is finished in a highly questionable color. None of that matters to me. Working up historic loads, carrying and shooting, cleaning and lubing are all exactly the same as if it were a perfect original, so from my point of view the experience is exactly the same as if it were and I was doing it in the period.
That philosophy pervades my activities. I hand sewed parts of my breeches, just to learn how, but machine sewed others, and it matters not a whit to me. They feel exactly the same as a perfectly hand-sewn pair, and that's what matters to me. Most every piece of my gear is in some way similar. But I know what it's like to go without light, fire, hot food and warmth on a cold winter night because I couldn't make fire with flint and steel, and I think my old persona and I would share that experience exactly.
I don't hesitate to step out of my persona if I want. It is highly unlikely any man of my age on the frontier would hit the woods in a breechclout and leggings. I do that frequently because I want to experience that, learn what it was like for them in the day. The thorns scratching my thighs feel the same as theirs, I'm sure.
Spence
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Keith
City-dweller
Bushfire close but safe now. Getting some good rain.
Posts: 990
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Rifling
Jun 19, 2019 21:17:48 GMT -7
Post by Keith on Jun 19, 2019 21:17:48 GMT -7
My overriding interest in 're-enacting' is to experience as much as possible what the old boys might have experienced. My motto could well be, "Use the equipment they used and do the things they did, and many of your solutions and experiences will mirror theirs." That obviously involves learning some of their skills, and that's a big part of it, for me. I have gone essentially solo, have never done 'events' except a couple of times years ago to see what they were all about. I have also never engaged in any kind of competition, not my thing, I have chosen an individual persona, and put forth some effort to develop it in detail, but not for the purpose of trying to become that man or even to represent him directly. The persona, with its back story covering a period of time, is there to give me a framework to hang my efforts on. It answers the who, where, when, class status, education, financial situation, past history, etc., questions , and makes my activities appropriate to my age and interests. It concentrates my research efforts to a particular period, and that's critical. As an example...I was an old man when I started doing living history, so I chose the persona of an old man. Hunting was required. I didn't want to do extended trips. I didn't want to include horses. I didn't want to do anything martial, I don't do war. So, my character is an old Scots-Irish widower who moved from Virginia in his declining years to live with his son and his family on the Kentucky frontier in the area of Logan's fort in the late 1770s. He wants to be useful to his family, so he hunts for them. His hunts are short range ones, he walks away from the cabin carrying what he needs for outings of only one or two days duration. I also greatly enjoy 18th-century cooking, and those activities would be welcomed by my son's family, as would most anything I decide I want to explore in my fictitious everyman family. As I've grown older in real life it has been easy to fit my changing capabilities into my tale...the old may would be doing the same. Placing the experiences uppermost in my priorities means I don't have to be a 'stitch counter'. For example, my go-to gun is not totally HC/PC. It is a flintlock smoothbore of appropriate caliber, with a long barrel, curly maple stock of early configuration with wooden patchbox, alright, which are spot on for my time period, but it has iron furniture, a DOM tubing barrel of incorrect profile, has no carving or inlays, and is finished in a highly questionable color. None of that matters to me. Working up historic loads, carrying and shooting, cleaning and lubing are all exactly the same as if it were a perfect original, so from my point of view the experience is exactly the same as if it were and I was doing it in the period. That philosophy pervades my activities. I hand sewed parts of my breeches, just to learn how, but machine sewed others, and it matters not a whit to me. They feel exactly the same as a perfectly hand-sewn pair, and that's what matters to me. Most every piece of my gear is in some way similar. But I know what it's like to go without light, fire, hot food and warmth on a cold winter night because I couldn't make fire with flint and steel, and I think my old persona and I would share that experience exactly. I don't hesitate to step out of my persona if I want. It is highly unlikely any man of my age on the frontier would hit the woods in a breechclout and leggings. I do that frequently because I want to experience that, learn what it was like for them in the day. The thorns scratching my thighs feel the same as theirs, I'm sure. Spence
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Rifling
Jun 25, 2019 12:33:41 GMT -7
via mobile
Post by johnhalf on Jun 25, 2019 12:33:41 GMT -7
Thank you all so much! Plenty to think sbout in these responses. Maybe i will keep him in PA.
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Post by artificer on Jul 19, 2019 7:57:15 GMT -7
Hi John,
As to the early use of rifles in New York and on another forum 15 years ago, one poster wrote the following,"Then we have Gov. Dongan of New York writing the Gov. of Pa. in 1688 stating that 10% of his Militia force of the previous summer were riflemen. There are ads by Gunmakers in New England who make rifles etc etc."
At the time, I researched the remaining extant letters from Gov. Dongan I found online, but could not find the letter where he mentioned that. To be fair, not all the letters Gov Dongan wrote are still extant, though, and the online link I used doesn't work anymore. I did find out the force was about 5,500 strong, so that would have been over 500 rifles that early. Now, there were men from PA in the force who some may have had rifles. I would NOT take this information of over 500 rifles that early, if I could not at least document the original letter. I don't have access to the "ads by Gunmakers in New England," so I can't document that, either.
However, by the time period you mention, it is quite possible someone from New York had lived in or traveled to PA or other areas where he had seen rifles used and decided he wanted one as well. So I would not arbitraly rule out the possibility of some folks in New York owning rifles.
Gus
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