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Post by brokennock on May 26, 2021 7:11:52 GMT -7
Once the shooting starts, I've never heard anyone complain about having "too much" ammo.
Lead that isn't ready to shoot and a mold? Well, that is a different story.
I'd like to ask a question, and I ask it with the ball mold in mind, that maybe cab put a little spin on this gear issue.
Okay maybe a couple questions.
Have we maybe let a bit of our modern lightweight backpacking/less stuff-more skills bushcraft thinking invade our thinking here?
If we are trying to feel what our predecessors felt, to experience some of what they experienced, in order to understand more how they though and felt,,, should we not be carrying the weight they carried? Is the weight and burden not part of the experience?
Sometimes I think we are trying to find a better way to do what they did within the realm of only using what they had available at the time.
How does the bag ball mold land me here?
For a large party headed into the wilderness for an extended time for whatever reason, I suppose I can force myself to understand that maybe they would have brought lead bars as the shape may be easier to pack and store a significant quantity in less space than balls. But, for the individual frontiersman or small party, I have a hard time with it.
The mold however seems essential. We know calibers were not standardized, your mold was was your gun. If one is to reuse lead taken from downed game, lifted off a fallen enemy, or comrade (or simply share ammo with a partner), one will need that mold that goes with that gun.
How does this effect my questions and this discussion?
I may not use my mold often on an outing, maybe never, but that weight, and the space it takes up, is part of the experience. If I remove it because it is in the way a lot, I remove part of what they experienced, if it is inconvenient for me when trying to get at something else in that bag, it was inconvenient for them.
This can be applied to blankets and other things as well. Tarps/ground cloths/rain flies seem a good one. Anytime the subject is brought up, weight, and how to make the lightest one possible is brought up often. Only a brief mention that tarps would most likely been carried on a horse or in a boat/canoe. This sounds like bushcraft load reduction to me.
I read about carrying pails and big pots and other cumbersome items, on the match to or from this place or that, maybe only one per mess, but someone had to carry it, and I think, "I wouldn't want to carry that all that way," with visions of that pot banging me in the calf or lower leg every other step. But, that is what they did.
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Post by paranger on May 26, 2021 8:18:07 GMT -7
Nock,
Some really good musings there. I think it is important to bound the discussion by coming back to the impression / experience that you are going for. Then (as now) there were a range of answers.
For instance, if you were a regular in a line regiment or even a provincial soldier in many cases, you would carry exactly what was prescribed, and much ink has been spilled in the community documenting that load, with estimates ranging from 60lbs on up. BTW, the load for a leg infantryman has remained remarkably stable over the centuries since, which I find amusing.
On the other end of the spectrum, a Native in a war party would carry next to nothing by comparison - bare essentials to say the least.
If stealth and speed are requirements (e.g. Rogers Rangers on the St. Francis raid), then you will "travel light and freeze at night" as they say.
Most of us seem to spend our time doing impressions somewhere in between these extremes, so it seems logical that our kit load would vary proportionally.
BTW, I have carried the big mess kettle on a trek for my unit to forestall its owner from becoming a heat casualty, and it might as well have been a mortar base plate for as cumbersome as it seemed.😁
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Post by spence on May 26, 2021 8:57:13 GMT -7
paranger said: "BTW, I have carried the big mess kettle on a trek for my unit to forestall its owner from becoming a heat casualty, and it might as well have been a mortar base plate for as cumbersome as it seemed."😁
Joseph Plumb Martin, _A Narrative of a Revolutionary Soldier_:
"We had our cooking utensils, (at that time the most useless things in the army.) to carry in our hands. They were made of cast iron and consequently heavy. I was so beat out before morning, with hunger and fatigue, that I could hardly move one foot before the other. I told my messmates that I could not carry our kettle any further, they said they would not carry it any further, of what use was it? they had nothing to cook and did not want any thing to cook with. We were sitting down on the ascent of a hill when this discourse happened. We got up to proceed, when I took up the kettle, which held nearly common pail full, I could not carry it, my arms were almost dislocated; I sat it down in the road, and one of the others gave it a shove with his foot, and it rolled down against the fence, and that was the last I ever saw of it. When we got through the night’s march we found our mess was not the only one that was rid of their iron bondage."
Spence
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Post by hawkeyes on May 26, 2021 10:58:06 GMT -7
When carrying peiod gear... Weight is always going to be a problem. For the most part, it's all apart of the self induced suck factor like having to endure certain elemental factors. While I'm cautious and responsible with my own limitations lugging things in a period manner sometimes just isn't going to be enjoyable given weight/ bulk factors. I personally just embrace it and make do and take mental notes and reminisce on the past.
I do however favor my Osprey pack... Spoiled... I will say having experience using modern gear in the backcountry makes 18th century kit more enjoyable, gives a greater appreciation for the days of old I feel.
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Post by spence on May 26, 2021 11:06:10 GMT -7
It's pretty well accepted that most travel of any length in the period was not done afoot. The number of instances of that being done which I've found is very small, 3-4 at the most. Because of that I have the impression that nothing similar to the modern activity we call backpacking was done in the day. They took horses, not only to ride, but to carry their gear. From John Redd's interview by Lyman Draper:
“I was aquainted with several men who were called longhunters…The longhunters usually set out the first of October, each man carried two horses, traps, a large supply of powder and led, and a small hand vice and bellows, files and screw plate for the purpose of fixing the guns if any of them should get out of fix.”
It seems that traveling to a hunting/trapping location by horseback, establishing a central camp and working the country with that as a base was common for the longhunters, with individuals spending one or several days out, then returning with their catch for processing. I've found records of that happening, but no info as to whether they were mounted or walked during those hunts. I expect they took horses, both for themselves and to carry any catch they made.
Instances of foot travel are not completely absent. In the summer of 1766 James Smith was with a party exploring in the area of modern Paducah, Kentucky when he decided to return to Fort Chiswell in Virginia, a distance of nearly 500 miles. Because, as he said, getting a horse through the mountains was so difficult, he left his horses with his companions and walked. No information as to what he carried, or how, but he had a teenage slave along to help with the load. Because that decision to walk home was not something he knew he would make when setting out on the exploration months before, it seems logical he had no "backpacking" gear along in anticipation.
BTW, one thing Smith recorded as having along on his walk was his bullet mold.
We can't duplicate the situation the old boys were in. Horses are not part of our world, and we can almost never include them in our emulation. To me, that is of no importance. I don't want my trekking to be just a version of modern backpacking, but carrying my gear and supplies in a modern way when necessary is OK by me. It doesn't diminish my experience.
Spence
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Post by brokennock on May 26, 2021 11:58:40 GMT -7
Haha, I was thinking of the Plumb Martin quote when I mentioned the kettle.
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Keith
Hunter
Bushfire close but safe now. Getting some good rain.
Posts: 1,002 
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Post by Keith on May 26, 2021 18:34:17 GMT -7
Some of you might be interested in reading this article I wrote some time ago. Travel On Foot In The Colonial New World.
woodsrunnersdiary.blogspot.com/search?q=travel
Keeping with the theme of survival in the New World and what you need to carry with you, I thought that I had better show you some of my research findings on Travel By Foot. I did inquire on some US sites in regard to foot travel and was informed that it did not happen! All travel was done by boat, canoe or horse. This just did not make sense to me so I kept digging.
I simply could not imagine these poor people being able to afford a horse. They would have enough trouble raising enough money to purchase equipment and tools. And if I had enough money to purchase a horse, I would sooner spend it on a cow at calf and use it to carry a load. Anyway, this is some of what I have found so far.
Travel On Foot. |
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Post by brokennock on May 26, 2021 19:18:36 GMT -7
Okay, what is "the Peruvian bark?"
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Post by spence on May 26, 2021 19:51:55 GMT -7
Thank you , Keith, helps fill in the gaps in our understanding, as usual with your posts.
Spence
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Post by hawkeyes on May 27, 2021 3:45:50 GMT -7
I'll rephrase, I'm not carrying my period gear in a modern pack. Having experience on both fronts a modern load bearing system is enjoyable and comfortable when properly tailored, packed correctly and worn as intended. Having the experience of using modern gear then switching over to period attire for personal outings makes you really appreciate the hobby. Period gear is heavy, no getting around it. The course of action changes, you begin to move slower and more methodically with your route and terrain. It's almost as if the burden of the gear load changes your mind state and sharpens acuity. Does this make any sense at all to anyone? Trying to explain best I can...
For me personally when I think about cutting the load I think of things that cannot be documented. I need no extra fantasy adaptation to enjoy myself and the experience. Weight is honestly for me of no concern outside of good reason. I'm not lugging irons, big pots and the like. Strictly for my personal needs it's the bare essentials one would have had available. I'll say my bag mold to feed my rifle gun is always coming along!
Even in the modern backpack scene I've seen people dump gear on trail heads. Even today they pack way to much gear, or pack in an inexperienced way. I carry a 33 liter pack. I'm not a through hiker and a larger 60-75 liter pack is absurd for my purposes. So many times I've heard " sure that pack is big enough?" I run off the premise and experience of do more with less. I'm here for an experience in nature, not to fumble with unnecessary gear and trinkets.
Now my mind does get ahold of me sometimes and says you need this or you need that... I'll re-evaluate my period gear before an outing multiple times as is the same for modern kit.
Good topic of discussion for sure. I will say I'd love the opportunity to own a horse again, especially as a loyal companion on the trail. Amazing animals then and indeed still today.
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Post by Sicilianhunter on May 27, 2021 4:21:30 GMT -7
PARanger,
Thank you for opening this topic of conversation!!
Many Excellent points are being brought to the fore and I think we are all thinking in a similar fashion using different examples.
Do I see the value in a bag mold as a part of my kit?
ABSOLUTELY!!
Does it need to go everywhere with me if I am a part of a posse/militia/military unit or as a hunter?
I don't think so.
The situation(s) will dictate what I might need on the hunt for game or foe.
Giving credence to the axiom, "travel light, freeze at night..." or "Bring only what you need to kill with..." (-Steiner, 'Cross of Iron')
Something I would like to bring up as well, is that our modern thinking of the frontier INDIVIDUAL may not be as correct as we might think and this would be reflected in our choices of gear and the carriage thereof.
For instance, men back then would have not had a problem sharing bedding and blankets never mind a communal pot(Mess).
I'm inclined to believe there was much more "group think" then we give credit to.
One personal example that comes to mind is from my last squirrel hunt...
In the mornings the fire would get stoked by who ever woke up first, everybody else would slowly rise and then congregate around the fire and before you knew it there were enough small kettles and tin cups on the fire to cover it completely!!
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Post by Black Hand on May 27, 2021 7:02:40 GMT -7
Okay, what is "the Peruvian bark?" Bark from the Chinchona tree, the original source of quinine used to treat Malaria. Also known as "Jesuit bark". |
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Post by Black Hand on May 27, 2021 7:14:53 GMT -7
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Post by armando on May 30, 2021 14:09:37 GMT -7
What did you pack in lieu of a corn boiler? Did you just heat up water in your cup? Mine is not a very fancy one so I wouldn't mind NOT carrying it but not sure what I would use in it's stead to make my morning coffee.
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Post by Black Hand on May 30, 2021 15:15:58 GMT -7
I use a small brass trade kettle (1/2 gallon), a small tin cup (coffee/tea/chocolate) and a wooden noggin that gets used for a bowl. The kettle is large enough to make stew for 4-5 guys...
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