RyanAK
City-dweller
Once scalped…
Posts: 973
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Post by RyanAK on Apr 29, 2022 18:34:01 GMT -7
PS - I’m going to my books for dates and examples.
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Post by brokennock on Apr 29, 2022 20:04:25 GMT -7
.....Upland and waterfowl guns almost never are seen with straps, even today...... R You clearly haven't had much exposure to rabbit and upland bird hunters of Italian heritage, lol. |
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Post by brokennock on Apr 29, 2022 20:11:18 GMT -7
I agree with most of what you say in the above partially quoted post.
However, I do think early smoothrifles with sling attachments would have been known. In areas where rifles were becoming common at the time. Note that the reason stated for the topic in my o.p. is that many of the pics posted elsewhere of original early rifles show them with strap attachment hardware.
If those early rifles had straps, wouldn't the smoothrifle made at the same time, by the same maker, have one too?
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RyanAK
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Once scalped…
Posts: 973
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Post by RyanAK on Apr 29, 2022 20:15:36 GMT -7
Civilian arms with sling hardware: Colonial Frontier Guns Pg.107 Figure 64 - A Rifle with Type C-D Furniture. This rifle has a Bess type stock with French trade gun furniture. It has a swivel on the fore-stock and another on the butt-stock. The stock has not been altered for a bayonet.
Flintlock Fowlers Pg.75 NE 40 - A New England Fowler c.1775. This Fowler has reworked British military fittings including the trigger guard with swivel. Swivel on fore-stock which has also been adapted for a bayonet.
Flintlock Fowlers Pg.189 BS 17 - A British-style Fowler. Maple sock with Short Land hardware including the trigger guard with swivel. Gun does not have provisions for a bayonet.
Rifles of Colonial America No.16 - smooth rifle with octagon-to-round barrel. Front swivel and another at the trigger guard similar to a modern screw-type. It appears the swivel stud takes the place of one of the guard screws. Brilliant!
RCA No.17 - smooth rifle with the “button” stud on the butt-stock.
RCA No.19 - Berks Co. smooth rifle with a hole for a swivel in the bow of the trigger guard and another screw-in swivel stud at the rear of the rifle-style guard.
I think your PC is covered!
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RyanAK
City-dweller
Once scalped…
Posts: 973
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Post by RyanAK on Apr 29, 2022 20:20:13 GMT -7
I agree with most of what you say in the above partially quoted post. However, I do think early smoothrifles with sling attachments would have been known. In areas where rifles were becoming common at the time. Note that the reason stated for the topic in my o.p. is that many of the pics posted elsewhere of original early rifles show them with strap attachment hardware. If those early rifles had straps, wouldn't the smoothrifle made at the same time, by the same maker, have one too? Yeah… as soon as I typed it I thought I had better check. Literally 15 minutes with Shumway and I had three examples of smooth rifles with sling hardware. So… I’ll try to verify before I write next time. Ha. |
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Post by brokennock on Apr 30, 2022 3:41:47 GMT -7
This is how we all learn. It doesn't need to be a stupid argument with people's ego getting bruised because they were questioned. Those questions lead to answers. Those requests for verification/documentation lead to reevaluation (or could/should) or confirmation.
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RyanAK
City-dweller
Once scalped…
Posts: 973
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Post by RyanAK on Apr 30, 2022 5:34:30 GMT -7
This is how we all learn. It doesn't need to be a stupid argument with people's ego getting bruised because they were questioned. Those questions lead to answers. Those requests for verification/documentation lead to reevaluation (or could/should) or confirmation. Absolutely! Y’a won’t catch me getting bent over this stuff. I love the search and path to greater understanding. I just learned something I thought I knew was incorrect! |
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Post by Black Hand on Apr 30, 2022 17:52:58 GMT -7
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” ― Mark Twain
Finding out you are wrong can be the best thing that happens...
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RyanAK
City-dweller
Once scalped…
Posts: 973
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Post by RyanAK on Apr 30, 2022 18:06:29 GMT -7
Absolutely! When I questioned my own response, I had to go review my materials. Learned something and corrected the record. Fun stuff.
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RyanAK
City-dweller
Once scalped…
Posts: 973
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Post by RyanAK on May 1, 2022 10:21:31 GMT -7
I took photos of the pages listed above and sent to Brokennock (hate when that happens…) so if anyone is curious and doesn’t have the reference books, drop me a PM with your email address and not trouble to send to you.
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Post by artificer on May 14, 2022 15:26:54 GMT -7
I don't have any kind of computer capable camera or cell phone with a camera, so I have to hunt things down or sometimes do the best I can with pictures I can find on the web, so I hope folks will excuse me that I can't take pics from RCA I or II. Off the top of my head, there is at least one, if not two long rifles that have a hole through the lug on the front top of the trigger bow that seems to be for use with a rear sling swivel. Since I can't take a picture, here's a pic of a trigger guard from TOW that has such a lug, but no drilled hole. cdn.trackofthewolf.com/imgPart/tg/tg-early-5-i_1.jpgTrack's caption reads: "This early longrifle triggerguard has features more typically found on classic American longrifles of the 1750 - 1780 era. The front bow lug is ideal for a swivel. Use this triggerguard on a Andreas Albrecht rifle of Christian Springs, Pennsylvania." IF that hole in the lug on the top front of the trigger guard was for a sling loop, there was no sling with the one or two originals, so we can't be certain of what looked like. It is possible that a military style sling like the following could have been used and if the sling constructed with the adjustment buckle as close as possible to the trigger guard, it would work in the upside down carry near either side of the body OR if set up so it is long enough that it is always loose, then capable of being used across the back carry. www.najecki.com/repro/musket/Fsling-twopiece.jpgGus |
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Post by brokennock on May 14, 2022 17:57:41 GMT -7
Thank you Gus.
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Post by artificer on May 15, 2022 9:10:09 GMT -7
CORRECTION. Sorry.
With a two piece buckle sling, you want the adjustment buckle as close as possible to the FRONT swivel (not the trigger guard as I messed up writing before). The part of the sling that attaches to the front swivel should go all the way to just in front of the trigger guard. This allows maximum length to go over your shoulder and possibly over your back, if made long and loose.
Gus
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