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Post by brokennock on Jan 17, 2022 8:47:17 GMT -7
Reading through some of Keith's blog posts on travel I came across a couple curiosities I'd like to know more about. Two quotes from, "NARRATIVE OF A JOURNEY INTO THE MOHAWK AND ONEIDA COUNTRY, 1634-1635" catch my interest.
"The houses were full of corn that they call onersti,vii and we saw maize; yes, in some of the houses more than 300 bushels." Why the differentiation between corn and maize? Was this because at one time all individual grains were referred to as "corn" such as a bowl full of wheat kernels being "corn?"
Also, anyone know anything more about this bread, "....saw some Indians approaching; and as soon as they saw us they ran off and threw their sacks and bags away, and fled down a valley behind the underwood, so that we could not see them. We looked at their goods and bags, and took therefrom a small bread. It was baked with beans,,,,"?
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ewoaf
City-dweller
Posts: 203
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Post by ewoaf on Jan 17, 2022 9:12:21 GMT -7
There's no difference. Your poor translation is full of typos. We all know europeans called Indian corn maize. The Haudenosaunee word for corn is onaste. They also baked cooked beans into their corn bread. That's all he's taking about. Corn is corn, wheat is wheat, and reinvented wheels don't roll.
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Post by spence on Jan 17, 2022 9:29:32 GMT -7
Brokennock said. "Also, anyone know anything more about this bread,"
From Scoouwa, the captivity narrative of James Smith, describing life among the Delaware 1755L "As our hunters were now tired with indolence, and fond of their own kind of exercise, they all turned out to fowling, and in this could scarce miss of success; so that now we had plenty of homony and the best of fowls; and sometime as a rarity we had a little bread, which was made of Indian corn meal, pounded in a homony-block, mixed with boiled beans, and baked in cakes under the ashes."
The Moravian missionary Heckewelder, “History, Manners and Customs of the Indian Nations” 1818: Describing Delaware bread: "Their bread is of two kinds; one made up of green corn while in the milk, and another of the same grain when fully ripe and quite dry. This last is pounded as fine as possible, then sifted and kneaded into dough, and afterwards made up into cakes of six inches in diameter and about an inch in thickness, rounded off on the edge. In baking these cakes they are extremely particular; the ashes must be clean and hot, and if possible come out of good dry oak barks, which they say gives a brisk and durable heat. In the dough of this kind of bread, they frequently mix boiled pumpkins, green or dried, dry beans, or well pared chestnuts, boiled in the same manner, dried venison well pounded, whortleberries, green or dry, but not boiled, sugar and other palatable ingredients."
Spence
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Post by brokennock on Jan 17, 2022 12:17:31 GMT -7
I've read the James Smith captivity story at least 3 times, yet it didn't come to mind. Maybe I did hit my head when I fell, lol.
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Post by spence on Jan 17, 2022 14:48:32 GMT -7
Well, at least you have an excuse, which is more than some of us can say. Bread was very much on the mind of many men on outings, and they mention it frequently, often complaining of having none. They also describe substitutes, such as breast of turkey eaten as the bread with their meal. Their idea of bread was sometimes quite different than ours today. _Indian Captivity: A true narrative of the capture of Rev. O. M. Spencer by the Indians, in the neighborhood of Cincinnati_ , in 1792 "For bread, besides that prepared in the ordinary way from corn meal, we had some made of the green corn, cut from the cob and pounded in a mortar until it was brought to the consistency of thick cream, then being salted and poured into a sort of mould of an oblong form, more than half the length and twice the thickness of a man’s hand, made of corn leaves, and baked in the ashes, was very palatable." Spence
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Post by spence on Jan 17, 2022 15:06:38 GMT -7
I tried some of the "bread" described by Spencer above, and it wasn't at all bad. Spence
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Joe
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Posts: 170
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Post by Joe on Jan 17, 2022 15:15:07 GMT -7
So, the quote is from the journal of Harmen Meyndertsz van den Bogaert, 2 days after he left Fort Orange ,near Albany New York. His journal was translated by Charles Gehring of the New Netherland Project/institute.
Here is the full entry.
"December 13. In the morning we went together to the castle over the ice that during the night had frozen on the kill, and after going half a league, we arrived in their first castle, which is built on a high hill. There stood but 36 houses, in rows like streets, so that we could pass nicely. The houses are made and covered with bark of trees, and mostly are flat at the top. Some are 100, 90, or 80 paces long and 22 and 23 feet wide. There were some inside doors of hewn boards, furnished with iron hinges. In some houses we saw different kinds of iron work, iron chains, harrow irons, iron hoops, nails — which they steal when they go forth from here. Most of the people were out hunting deer and bear. The houses were full of corn that they call onersti, and we saw maize; yes, in some of the houses more than 300 bushels. They make canoes and barrels of the bark of trees, and sew with bark as well. We had a good many pumpkins cooked and baked that they called anansira. None of the chiefs was at home, but the principal chief is named Adriochten, who lived a quarter of a mile from the fort in a small house, because a good many savages here in the castle died of smallpox. I sent him a message to come and see us, which he did; he came and bade me welcome, and said that he wanted us very much to come with him. We should have done so, but when already on the way another chief called us, and so we went to the castle again. This one had a big fire lighted, and a fat haunch of venison cooked, of which we ate. He gave us two bearskins to sleep upon, and presented me with three beaver skins. In the evening Willem Tomassen, whose legs were swollen from the march, had a few cuts made with a knife therein, and after that had them rubbed with bear grease. We slept in this house, ate heartily of pumpkins, beans and venison, so that we were not hungry, but were treated as well as is possible in their land. We hope that all will succeed."
Now, in 1641 Isaac Jogues visited Fort Orange and wrote that they grew wheat and made beer from it and also grew oats and fed it to their horses. They also traded with the Indians.
The mohawk language was first translated by the French and the French translation for wheat is corn.
I think The first reference "The houses were full of corn that they call onersti," (Onersti means corn in Mohawk). Refers to wheat, or some other grain. that's why the writer seemed surprised. and also mentions maize.
There is a lot of fascinating history surrounding fort Orange and other Dutch colonies.
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Joe
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Posts: 170
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Post by Joe on Jan 17, 2022 15:19:37 GMT -7
"For bread, besides that prepared in the ordinary way from corn meal, we had some made of the green corn, cut from the cob and pounded in a mortar until it was brought to the consistency of thick cream, then being salted and poured into a sort of mould of an oblong form, more than half the length and twice the thickness of a man’s hand, made of corn leaves, and baked in the ashes, was very palatable." Spence I don't think in this instance green corn would have been available in mid December when the journal entry was written.
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ewoaf
City-dweller
Posts: 203
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Post by ewoaf on Jan 17, 2022 15:48:03 GMT -7
I'm still failing to understand why y'all trying to get references to wheat out a quote that never mentions it.
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Post by brokennock on Jan 17, 2022 16:50:32 GMT -7
So, the quote is from the journal of Harmen Meyndertsz van den Bogaert, 2 days after he left Fort Orange ,near Albany New York. His journal was translated by Charles Gehring of the New Netherland Project/institute. Here is the full entry. "December 13. In the morning we went together to the castle over the ice that during the night had frozen on the kill, and after going half a league, we arrived in their first castle, which is built on a high hill. There stood but 36 houses, in rows like streets, so that we could pass nicely. The houses are made and covered with bark of trees, and mostly are flat at the top. Some are 100, 90, or 80 paces long and 22 and 23 feet wide. There were some inside doors of hewn boards, furnished with iron hinges. In some houses we saw different kinds of iron work, iron chains, harrow irons, iron hoops, nails — which they steal when they go forth from here. Most of the people were out hunting deer and bear. The houses were full of corn that they call onersti, and we saw maize; yes, in some of the houses more than 300 bushels. They make canoes and barrels of the bark of trees, and sew with bark as well. We had a good many pumpkins cooked and baked that they called anansira. None of the chiefs was at home, but the principal chief is named Adriochten, who lived a quarter of a mile from the fort in a small house, because a good many savages here in the castle died of smallpox. I sent him a message to come and see us, which he did; he came and bade me welcome, and said that he wanted us very much to come with him. We should have done so, but when already on the way another chief called us, and so we went to the castle again. This one had a big fire lighted, and a fat haunch of venison cooked, of which we ate. He gave us two bearskins to sleep upon, and presented me with three beaver skins. In the evening Willem Tomassen, whose legs were swollen from the march, had a few cuts made with a knife therein, and after that had them rubbed with bear grease. We slept in this house, ate heartily of pumpkins, beans and venison, so that we were not hungry, but were treated as well as is possible in their land. We hope that all will succeed." Now, in 1641 Isaac Jogues visited Fort Orange and wrote that they grew wheat and made beer from it and also grew oats and fed it to their horses. They also traded with the Indians. The mohawk language was first translated by the French and the French translation for wheat is corn. I think The first reference "The houses were full of corn that they call onersti," (Onersti means corn in Mohawk). Refers to wheat, or some other grain. that's why the writer seemed surprised. and also mentions maize. There is a lot of fascinating history surrounding fort Orange and other Dutch colonies. "The mohawk language was first translated by the French and the French translation for wheat is corn. I think The first reference "The houses were full of corn that they call onersti," (Onersti means corn in Mohawk). Refers to wheat, or some other grain. that's why the writer seemed surprised. and also mentions maize." This was my thinking as well, but wasn't positive. I can't see any other reason why he would differentiate between "corn" and "maize" when we usually think of them as the same thing.
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Post by brokennock on Jan 17, 2022 16:53:41 GMT -7
I'm still failing to understand why y'all trying to get references to wheat out a quote that never mentions it. "The houses were full of corn that they call onersti, and we saw maize; yes, in some of the houses more than 300 bushels" If "corn" and "maize" were the same thing, as we think of it now, why does Harmen Meyndertsz van den Bogaert seperate the two?
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ewoaf
City-dweller
Posts: 203
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Post by ewoaf on Jan 17, 2022 16:57:39 GMT -7
I'm still failing to understand why y'all trying to get references to wheat out a quote that never mentions it. "The houses were full of corn that they call onersti, and we saw maize; yes, in some of the houses more than 300 bushels" If "corn" and "maize" were the same thing, as we think of it now, why does Harmen Meyndertsz van den Bogaert seperate the two? See my above reply. I've already answered that. You keep posting a trash translation.
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Post by brokennock on Jan 17, 2022 17:24:54 GMT -7
Then post a better one. We have posted the ones we have. I got the 1st one from Keith's blog. Not sure where Joe's came from.
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ewoaf
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Posts: 203
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Post by ewoaf on Jan 17, 2022 17:39:53 GMT -7
These houses were full of grain that they call onesti, and we corn;
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Post by spence on Jan 17, 2022 18:00:25 GMT -7
"The houses were full of corn that they call onersti, and we saw maize; yes, in some of the houses more than 300 bushels."
Is seems logical that the sentence should say, "The houses were full of corn that they call onersti, and we call maize; yes, in some of the houses more than 300 bushels"
ewoaf, where is your translation from?
Spence
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