|
Post by Black Hand on Mar 6, 2022 20:09:53 GMT -7
You're running on the assumption that it might do something and therefore serves a purpose. Is this Pascal's Wager repackaged....?
|
|
|
Post by Sicilianhunter on Mar 8, 2022 6:42:47 GMT -7
Armando, Good on you for making yourself an authentic shot pouch, most of the blood shooters I met in NM looked like they were sporting their Granma's purse after she stuffed it with "to go" pork chops from the buffet... As PARanger states, they're way smaller and generally carried way less then we tend to stuff them with today. My advice on the dimensions to you is to pay attention to what your seam allowances need to be to get the intended dimensions when you turn the bag right side out. I wrote a post a while back about making an 18th C bag and it took 3 trys to get it right!! LOL GOOD LUCK!! Please post the journey to the finished product
|
|
|
Post by paranger on Mar 8, 2022 7:24:19 GMT -7
Armando, Good on you for making yourself an authentic shot pouch, most of the blood shooters I met in NM looked like they were sporting their Granma's purse after she stuffed it with "to go" pork chops from the buffet... As PARanger states, they're way smaller and generally carried way less then we tend to stuff them with today. My advice on the dimensions to you is to pay attention to what your seam allowances need to be to get the intended dimensions when you turn the bag right side out. I wrote a post a while back about making an 18th C bag and it took 3 trys to get it right!! LOL GOOD LUCK!! Please post the journey to the finished product Great point by SH: I have found that 1/2" seam allowance is about right for me for a "turned out" bag. That equates to adding one inch to both the length and width of your pattern for the front and back panels. And yes - I learned it the hard way, too!
|
|
|
Post by brokennock on Mar 8, 2022 16:37:16 GMT -7
Sicilian Hunter raises a good point about sizes. Both that original period bags were small by today's standards and they carried less c£@p with them, and that you will loose size to the seam and when turning. Turning will reduce your dimensions but gain some volume. I make mock up of new bag designs using cheap craft felt before committing to leather. This gives a better idea of size and also let's me know if anything needs to be put together in a certain order.
|
|
|
Post by armando on Mar 9, 2022 9:20:37 GMT -7
As always you guys provide great informed advice. Thank you so much.
Question: would it be historical correct to mix different material in a bag? For example, to make the body of the bag in a stiffer material but make the flap of a softer material?
I have one buckskin that tanned rather stiffly and I think may do nicely I thought about using a more supple hide for the flap
|
|
|
Post by paranger on Mar 9, 2022 10:32:40 GMT -7
As always you guys provide great informed advice. Thank you so much. Question: would it be historical correct to mix different material in a bag? For example, to make the body of the bag in a stiffer material but make the flap of a softer material? I have one buckskin that tanned rather stiffly and I think may do nicely I thought about using a more supple hide for the flap In a word: yes. I have seen surviving period bags made of composite materials - particularly hair on bags.
|
|
|
Post by spence on Mar 9, 2022 13:41:39 GMT -7
For what it's worth, I did an inventory of the types of leather used in the collection of shot pouches in Madison Grant's book, The Kentucky Rifle Hunting Pouch. Not all the pouches had the type mentioned, but these are the ones which did:
Cowhide -- 28 Calfskin -- 26 Pigskin -- 4 Calfskin with hair on -- 3 Bearskin -- 1 Sheepskin -- 1 Buffalo -- 1 Buckskin --1 (Indian) Moose -- 1 (Indian) Beaver -- 1 (the famous Medina pouch)
I scanned my database and found a few runway ads which mentioned the type of material of 18th century bags:
1765 otter 1767 calf with hair 1772 old sheepskin 1775 blue plush
Spence
|
|
|
Post by Black Hand on Mar 9, 2022 13:47:46 GMT -7
A bit OT - My favorite bag is one made from a (domestic) cat skin. IIRC, it is a Plains pipe bag (probably reservation era)...
|
|
|
Post by armando on Mar 16, 2022 10:56:32 GMT -7
Here’s my next question: was there evidence that they lined the inside of their pouches?
I’ve seen some modern reproductions that look like they’re lined with pillow ticking but don’t know if that’s based on extant examples.
|
|
|
Post by paranger on Mar 16, 2022 11:51:17 GMT -7
Here’s my next question: was there evidence that they lined the inside of their pouches? I’ve seen some modern reproductions that look like they’re lined with pillow ticking but don’t know if that’s based on extant examples. I couldn't recall ever seeing an original pouch lined with linen ticking (or anything else, for that matter), though I have seen numerous reproductions lined that way. That said, I just did a quick survey of Madison Grant's book to jog my memory. I didn't find a single mention of a lined bag in the 120+ original pouches depicted. Is it plausible? Sure, but I think it fair to say that Madison's book gives a pretty good cross section. Perhaps a more focused search of southern appalachian bags might produce an example, but I haven't been able to get my hands on this one yet: Sketches of Hunting Pouches, Powder Horns and Accoutrements of Southern Appalachia smile.amazon.com/dp/B003CDCK14/ref=cm_sw_r_apan_glt_i_QMK1WYWXS76TQQ01E52B
|
|
|
Post by artificer on Mar 28, 2022 7:19:04 GMT -7
Remember that vinegaroon only works on veg-tan leather. You'll need some other dye (like walnut) for braintan. I also agree with Nock - deerskin is rather thin and doesn't have much body. Might be too floppy for a gun bag. You’re probably right. Of course this one buckskin I did with the “orange bottle” is still kind of stiff and it might work. 😊 Would you guys recommend? Cowhide, pigskin, what oz hide? Hi Armando, Pigskin is a fine leather for this, BUT it is difficult to find in other than 2 3/4 oz and that's too thin for a Shot Pouch. If you can find it in something like 4 oz, that would work well. How much do you know about period tanning methods used in the 18th/19th century and where/how you can find the same leather today? Do you know what we mean when we say a certain oz weight/thickness? Are you familiar with the leather working term "temper" that relates to the stiffness or flexibility and sometimes softness of leather? Do you have a Tandy Leather store or other leather store within driving distance from you? I would be happy to help with these and other questions, but I'd like to know what info you need? Gus
|
|
|
Post by brokennock on Mar 28, 2022 16:22:09 GMT -7
I bought some pig leather from Tandy that is pretreated with waxes and such, it works out great for a shot pouch. But, one should pull on it a bit to see what direction the stretch is. It seems to stretch more in one direction than others,,, by a lot. It made the leather usless for a strap unless the strap was backed with something else. I backed my strap with pillow ticking that was tea stained.
|
|
|
Post by artificer on Mar 28, 2022 16:50:03 GMT -7
That "strechiness" you mentioned (good for you for picking up on it, BTW) may be from which tanning process was used to make it leather AND also what part of the hide the leather piece comes from. The closer the leather comes from each side of a full hide, the more it gets into the belly leather, which is always the stretchiest leather of the hide. The least stretchy part is down the middle of the back and that's the place to cut the best straps or belts. When using quarter or half hides, you can get great leather for the pouch and also great leather for the strap, as long as you cut the strap along the straight edge of the leather with halves or quarter pieces.
Gus
|
|
|
Post by spence on Mar 28, 2022 18:44:45 GMT -7
I bought some pig leather from Tandy that is pretreated with waxes and such, it works out great for a shot pouch. I agree. I bought pigskin from a vendor at a Friendship meet and wound up making both the pouches I have used extensively from it, never a problem. I don't know what process was used to tan it, it's pretty firm, has a distinct flesh and hair side, and a slight pebble finish. I expect some kind of vegetable tan. It was pre-dyed a deep brown. I've never really gotten straight in my head how the "weight" of leather is figured, Tandy says flat out that it's done by thickness, regardless of type of leather or type of tanning, and that 1 oz. is 1/64". That's .0156". My leather measures .055", so I guess it's 3 1/2 ounce. Whatever, it is a very good weight for a pouch, stiff enough, very durable, Neither pouch shows any significant wear after about 30 years of hard use. Spence
|
|
|
Post by artificer on Mar 28, 2022 18:56:59 GMT -7
If anyone is close to a Tandy Store, they are having a sale on 18th Century HCPC, 3-4 oz CRAFTSMAN VEG-TAN SINGLE SHOULDER'S that sale normally runs to the end of the month. tandyleather.com/collections/all/products/craftsman-veg-tan-single-shouldersSome caveats about buying these shoulders. 1. Tandy always has a large pile of such single shoulders when they have a sale. 2. I most strongly recommend you call ahead to see that your store has them in stock and then go to the store in person and go through the pile, yourself. IOW, DON'T just order one through the mail. You want to be able to look at each side carefully for the amount of usable leather, thickness and temper and they can differ greatly in this regard. I would advise selecting a piece or pieces that are closer to the 4 oz weight for a shot pouch. 3. Don't be surprised if you find up to a half dozen pieces that are very large size, though even the majority of them will be big enough to have all the leather you need to make a shot pouch with an adjustable two piece strap. If you want a one piece shoulder strap, which I don't care for myself, then you will have to buy a separate piece of strap leather long enough for a one piece strap. 4. This leather can be dyed with vinegaroon or a wide variety of "spirit stains" or alcohol based dyes, of which I consider Fiebing's regular dyes to be the very best. Yes, they did have a wide variety of spirit stain colors in the 18th century to dye leather. Well, it looks like I've talked myself into visiting my local store tomorrow. Gus
|
|