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Post by brokennock on Apr 23, 2023 6:41:03 GMT -7
So, as I look at a painting linked to throught this page provided by Gus, www.larsdatter.com/18c/men.html and listed under wooden legs,,,I notice many things that lead to questions and commentary. I also notice that we don't have a section for just life in general during our period of interest. I hope this can be an ongoing thread in which anyone can post paintings or writings that cause questions or reason for discussion. So this painting is from the 1750s, collections.soane.org/assets/object_images/7/98/95897/v0_soane_fullview.jpg?_m=1652783770While there is much satire involved, and therefore I'm sure some artistic license, from reading the write up provided I'm pretty sure that there is also a lot of accuracy, which would help counterpoint the absurdities used to make the artists point. Write up is on the main page Gus's list links to, collections.soane.org/object-p78It is lengthy. Some of what I am questioning or fond of interest started with things that I wasn't sure what I was looking at in the painting. For instance, what is the soldier to the left doing. What has he in his hands? A better copy of the painting would help. Turns out he is rolling tobacco in "Tonn's Best" rolling papers. Wait? What? Rolling papers in the mid 1750s? I thought tobacco use was pipes and snuff at this time.... How about the red crowned hat of our combatant in the foreground? Where does this fall into outer discussion of hat colors? And the workman he is fighting with has no waistcoat or coat? I thought this to be highly improper at this time,,, and I see no evidence of his outer garments. The soldier is bare chested to treat his wounds, but his coat and such are at hand. Any thoughts on these, especially the hat and rolling papers, or other questions or commentary on the painting? |
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Post by brokennock on Apr 23, 2023 6:41:49 GMT -7
Let's try to breathe some more life into this place, especially since I'm banned from that other one for 30 days, lol.
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Post by spence on Apr 23, 2023 7:54:17 GMT -7
Any thoughts on these, especially the hat and rolling papers, or other questions or commentary on the painting? I would suggest that drawing any firm conclusions from Hogarth is tricky, since a lot of the subject matter apparently comes from his imagination. Of course that's not true for everything in the painting, since he painted what he knew from real life, but gave it new meaning. Something which caught my eye was the weapon of the laborer in the white shirt. I thought that must be the earliest nunchaku known, but then found out the laborer was a farmer, so his weapon is a grain flail, a very real instrument. Don't forget that the write-up about the painting was done by a modern person with no actual, personal experience of the 18th-century situation. Did he get it right? Spence |
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Post by spence on Apr 23, 2023 8:50:49 GMT -7
Let's try to breathe some more life into this place,... Good luck with that. Remember Sisyphus. Spence |
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Post by artificer on Apr 23, 2023 8:53:20 GMT -7
FWIW, I found if you go to the link - collections.soane.org/object-p78, and then click on the painting, it comes up clearer than anything else I've found. "And the workman he is fighting with has no waistcoat or coat? I thought this to be highly improper at this time,,, and I see no evidence of his outer garments."Hi Nock, I don't think he is a town workman/laborer, but rather a farmer (just noticed the explanation is supposed to be a "country laborer") come to town with YE GADS, bare legs. Notice the Sow and Piglets by him? Also notice he is using an agricultural grain flail to fight with the sailor and which he might have been driving the sow? That's my take on him. As to the red crown hat, " A sailor with a peg-leg wearing Whig colours" looks like he has a similar colored cockade as the text also mentions the soldier " has a Whig cockade in his hat." So I'm guessing the crown of the sailor's hat was either painted or draped in cloth of the Whig Colours. More on the soldier: " and has stopped to roll some tobacco from a paper marked ‘…tons Best’" I'm thinking the tobacco was sold in a paper package, not that he was rolling cig's, but admit I'm not entirely sure of that. Gus |
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Post by artificer on Apr 23, 2023 8:58:27 GMT -7
Well, as I was typing, I see Spence already mentioned the grain flail in the hands of the country laborer. Good call, Spence.
Gus
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Post by brokennock on Apr 23, 2023 9:30:55 GMT -7
Yes I knew of the grain flail and the occupation of the man weilding it. Unfortunately the link in Gus's reply comes out just as grainy as the others I've seen. Country farmer or not, would it still not be inappropriate to come to town without at least a coat of some kind? I did also notice the lack of stockings but forgot to add it to my initial post. I also considered the red typed hat to be a color affiliation to the Whig party. Yet I also not the red crowned hat of the sailor here, www.britishtars.com/2015/12/a-rescue-or-tars-triumphant-1768.html?m=1I still think it most likely yo be of party affiliation though. As for the papers,,,, dates for the advent of rolling papers when doing a quick internet search are all over the map. Anywhere from the 1500s to 1760s, with popularity seemingly to overtake pipes and cigars mid to late 19th century. I may ask a local family that owns a small vegetable farm and farmstand/market of they know much of their family history back to this time,,, last name, Tonn. |
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Post by brokennock on Apr 23, 2023 9:33:12 GMT -7
Not personally..... 😉 😆😆😆😆 |
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Post by artificer on Apr 23, 2023 10:09:57 GMT -7
Yes I knew of the grain flail and the occupation of the man weilding it. Unfortunately the link in Gus's reply comes out just as grainy as the others I've seen. From Gus: Did you click on the picture again after going to the link? I sort of found that out accidentally and the picture came up clearer. Maybe it doesn't work on your cell phone like it does on a PC? Country farmer or not, would it still not be inappropriate to come to town without at least a coat of some kind? I did also notice the lack of stockings but forgot to add it to my initial post. From Gus: It seems they accepted Town Laborers to only be in shirt sleeves when actually working outdoors, though I'm not sure about indoors, unless it was very hot. Think of sawyers, brick makers and layers, and construction trades in town as a few examples wearing just shirtsleeves outdoors. The "country laborer" or farmer seems to have been driving a sow and piglets to market and not wearing shoes and stockings. Seems to me he isn't worried about how he looks while he is driving pigs and is wearing what he wore normally on a farm. I also considered the red typed hat to be a color affiliation to the Whig party. Yet I also not the red crowned hat of the sailor here, www.britishtars.com/2015/12/a-rescue-or-tars-triumphant-1768.html?m=1I still think it most likely yo be of party affiliation though. As for the papers,,,, dates for the advent of rolling papers when doing a quick internet search are all over the map. Anywhere from the 1500s to 1760s, with popularity seemingly to overtake pipes and cigars mid to late 19th century. I may ask a local family that owns a small vegetable farm and farmstand/market of they know much of their family history back to this time,,, last name, Tonn. From Gus: I'm not sure about others, but when I took either cut leaf tobacco or tobacco off a twist (another way they sold tobacco besides in paper packages in the 18th century) I usually rolled or pressed it a bit to get it into my pipe. However, I'd like to know if soldiers were commonly rolling cigs during the Mid 18th century. Gus |
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Post by Black Hand on Apr 23, 2023 13:06:43 GMT -7
Artistic license stemming from the use of field sketches. Get the basics on paper then fit in the details as remembered when back in the studio. I suspect very few artists did it all on site. Bodmer seems to be one exception to the rule.
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Post by spence on Apr 23, 2023 16:26:57 GMT -7
Looks the same peg-legged sailor to me.  An interesting item from real life, not a satire created by Hogarth: The Pennsylvania Gazette January 14, 1789 Cumberland county, state of New Jersey, Jan. 5, 1789. SIX POUNDS Reward. BROKE GAOL in the night of the second instant, a certain man, committed for horse-stealing, by the name of William Johnson, but it is supposed his real name is James Sutton, and that he has lately escaped from the wheelbarrow in Philadelphia, as his hair is cut remarkably short. He appears to be a middle aged man, about 5 feet 7 inches high, well set, short black hair, has been used to the water, and is fond of talking about vessels; had on an old felt hat painted white on the top of the crown, a blue sailor's jacket, the sleeves of which are covered with white canvas, old black sattin vest, a check linen shirt, white linen trowsers, and grey woolen stockings. Spence |
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Post by brokennock on Apr 23, 2023 16:47:46 GMT -7
Yes I knew of the grain flail and the occupation of the man weilding it. Unfortunately the link in Gus's reply comes out just as grainy as the others I've seen. From Gus: Did you click on the picture again after going to the link? I sort of found that out accidentally and the picture came up clearer. Maybe it doesn't work on your cell phone like it does on a PC? Country farmer or not, would it still not be inappropriate to come to town without at least a coat of some kind? I did also notice the lack of stockings but forgot to add it to my initial post. From Gus: It seems they accepted Town Laborers to only be in shirt sleeves when actually working outdoors, though I'm not sure about indoors, unless it was very hot. Think of sawyers, brick makers and layers, and construction trades in town as a few examples wearing just shirtsleeves outdoors. The "country laborer" or farmer seems to have been driving a sow and piglets to market and not wearing shoes and stockings. Seems to me he isn't worried about how he looks while he is driving pigs and is wearing what he wore normally on a farm. I also considered the red typed hat to be a color affiliation to the Whig party. Yet I also not the red crowned hat of the sailor here, www.britishtars.com/2015/12/a-rescue-or-tars-triumphant-1768.html?m=1I still think it most likely yo be of party affiliation though. As for the papers,,,, dates for the advent of rolling papers when doing a quick internet search are all over the map. Anywhere from the 1500s to 1760s, with popularity seemingly to overtake pipes and cigars mid to late 19th century. I may ask a local family that owns a small vegetable farm and farmstand/market of they know much of their family history back to this time,,, last name, Tonn. From Gus: I'm not sure about others, but when I took either cut leaf tobacco or tobacco off a twist (another way they sold tobacco besides in paper packages in the 18th century) I usually rolled or pressed it a bit to get it into my pipe. However, I'd like to know if soldiers were commonly rolling cigs during the Mid 18th century. Gus Yes I clicked the pic to enlarge it. Still can't read any of the writing. Same with the other pic I linked in my other reply, I can't read the warrant or the pamphlet in the sheriff's pocket. I too would be interested to know more about soldiers and 18th century cigarettes. Not that I need any more temptation to go back to those. I really like my cigars, but they don't fit my time period, place, or status. I do enjoy my pipe, but it is a bit fiddly. But now a nice simple cigarette,,,, ah,,, stres relief.... It's been close to 20 years since I quit them and I'm not often strongly tempted, but mix temptation with even a weak excuse...... |
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Post by spence on Apr 23, 2023 17:54:51 GMT -7
Brokennock said, "I really like my cigars, but they don't fit my time period, place, or status."
The South-Carolina GAZETTE
November 7, 1768
CHARLES-TOWN
GRIFFITH & CAPE; HAVE IMPORTED.In the ship Mary, Capt. G.,
Blank books, writing paper, Mogull and Henry the VIII playing cards; walnuts, cigars, gerkins, ketchup, oil in quart and pint bottles. Durharm mustard.
1762: General Israel Putnam introduces cigar-smoking to the US. After a British campaign in Cuba during the F&I War. "Old Put" returned with three donkey-loads of Havana cigars; introduced the customers of his Connecticut brewery and tavern to cigar smoking.
During all that time they have not been risk free. IMNSHO
Spence
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Post by brokennock on Apr 23, 2023 18:41:59 GMT -7
I agree that they are not risk free. But, what in life is?
I've wondered which came 1st, Putnam's cigar haul from Cuba to here, or the growing of the much revered Connecticut shade leaf wrapper? I think you have answered that question.
My impression has been that while cigars were known in New England, they were not well known or common, and were expensive, and thus didn't reach more common folk until the mid to late 19th century. But, I could be completely wrong on this.
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Post by spence on Apr 24, 2023 6:41:46 GMT -7
I've wondered which came 1st, Putnam's cigar haul from Cuba to here, or the growing of the much revered Connecticut shade leaf wrapper? Most sites I've seen claim Putnam brought back both cigars and seeds and also started growing the shade leaf wrapper. Spence |
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