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Post by brokennock on Apr 24, 2023 14:08:51 GMT -7
What else have folks for questions to ponder? Wjat other period paintings, sketches, or writings have challenged or made you question what we think we know about life and material culture in the mid to late 18th century? Even if you've already satisfied those questions....
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Post by lenapej on Apr 26, 2023 13:22:02 GMT -7
Here is one that is a bit confusing to me, it is "A Gardener" by Balthasar Denner 1735. I have seen this one several different times always as 1730's which brings up several questions, #1 Fall front breeches in the 1730's ?? #2 The widest cuffs on an 18th century shirt that I've seen. #3 Suspenders? did they use them in the period? if so wearing them over a waistcoat is kinda weird. Any ideas? If it would not have a date, I would have guessed 1780's or 90's.
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RyanAK
City-dweller
Once scalped…
Posts: 973
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Post by RyanAK on Apr 26, 2023 13:37:19 GMT -7
#1 and #3. Laderhosen. My guess. #2. There are extant 18th c. shirts with a wide wristband among examples attributed to the Pennsylvania Germanic settlers, though attribution as to date is often difficult.
Basically, I’d chalk this up as ‘ethnic’ dress and credit it as a wonderful example of ‘typical’ doesn’t mean ‘always’.
Great post, J!
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Post by brokennock on Apr 26, 2023 14:05:24 GMT -7
The arrangement at the knee of his breaches looks odd too. But moreso,,, is his waistcoat tucked into his breaches or lederhosen?
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Post by brokennock on Apr 26, 2023 14:07:03 GMT -7
The watering can is pretty cool though.
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Post by paranger on Apr 26, 2023 15:06:38 GMT -7
Waistcoat is tucked into breeches (perhaps to keep it clean while gardening?)
Stockings are pulled up over the knees of breeches. I have heard of this among Scots Irish here in PA, too, among the "older generation" which would correlate well to the 1730s, when the bulk of the immigration began.
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Post by lenapej on Apr 26, 2023 16:43:13 GMT -7
I have seen images of stockings pulled up over the knee, and have seen a waistcoat tucked into the breeches of a sailor before, ... The term laderhosen is a new one on me, could you explain please?
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Post by brokennock on Apr 26, 2023 16:59:56 GMT -7
I have seen images of stockings pulled up over the knee, and have seen a waistcoat tucked into the breeches of a sailor before, ... The term laderhosen is a new one on me, could you explain please? I think the correct spelling is lederhosen, might be some funky punctuation/accent marks in there to demote pronunciation as it is a German word. Basically breaches with braces attached and the braces have a piece of fabric connecting them across the sternum. I think they have the same across the back instead of the straps crossing in the back, but could be wrong on that.
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RyanAK
City-dweller
Once scalped…
Posts: 973
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Post by RyanAK on Apr 26, 2023 17:29:52 GMT -7
I have seen images of stockings pulled up over the knee, and have seen a waistcoat tucked into the breeches of a sailor before, ... The term laderhosen is a new one on me, could you explain please? You know… S ound of Music, Richola and Octoberfest. Also…
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Post by brokennock on Apr 26, 2023 17:44:25 GMT -7
😆😆😆
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Post by spence on Apr 26, 2023 18:21:29 GMT -7
leder = leather
Basically leather shorts.
Spencer
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Post by lenapej on Apr 27, 2023 15:15:39 GMT -7
Lol, ok thanks guys, I should have thought it through a bit before asking, I grew up speaking a dialect of German, and after a short google search it dawned on me, Lederhosen, "leather pants".
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Post by artificer on Apr 29, 2023 11:05:52 GMT -7
I've often wondered if the "strap carriage" of Lederhosen was the inspiration for braces/suspenders?
Gus
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Post by spence on Apr 29, 2023 16:20:45 GMT -7
I've often wondered if the "strap carriage" of Lederhosen was the inspiration for braces/suspenders? I don't know about the timing of the two items, but that reminds me of a cartoon/caricature from late 18th century which surprised me, taught me something I didn't know. It's from early 1790s, is held by the British Museum, and shows a fairly sophisticated pair of suspenders...braces..galluses in good detail. It's labeled Quarrelsome Taylors, or Two of a Trade seldom agree, 1793-95. The description by the Museum: "A ragged 'botching tailor' is climbing out of his bulk or stall (right) to attack with his goose a tailor who hastens from him, turning to snip his shears contemptuously. Above the penthouse stall is a placard, 'Simon Snip - maks & mendes Mens & Buoys reddy mad Close. N.B. nete Gallows for Breaches.' A garment and a pair of braces (see BMSat 8039) hang on a line; within a window is a sheet of patterns. The other, who is neatly dressed, carries a coat under his arm; a book of patterns protrudes from his coat pocket. A street receding in perspective (right) and the façade of a dignified house (left) form a background." Spence
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Post by artificer on May 1, 2023 7:15:34 GMT -7
Spence,
WOW, that is a sophisticated set of braces hanging up in that picture and so early!! What a GREAT find!! Thank you for sharing.
Gus
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