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Post by brokennock on Apr 28, 2019 1:05:03 GMT -7
1st a test of posting a picture, I've gotten spoiled not having to use my photo hosting account for a year. If that worked, a question will follow.
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Post by brokennock on Apr 28, 2019 1:07:23 GMT -7
Okay it worked. Question, too red? That pic actually looks more like red paint than the handle looks in real life. It's a rehandled knife I just did and used burgundy fiebings leather dye on. I'll post before and after pics later, and maybe an updated pic that shows the true color.
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Post by Sicilianhunter on Apr 28, 2019 12:23:10 GMT -7
Okay it worked. Question, too red? That pic actually looks more like red paint than the handle looks in real life. It's a rehandled knife I just did and used burgundy fiebings leather dye on. I'll post before and after pics later, and maybe an updated pic that shows the true color. Nock, Its a bit RED for my taste but that by no means sets a standard. I think with a bit of use that would take down the brightness quite a bit and maybe give a more of a Burgundy tone The Sicilian
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Post by brokennock on Apr 29, 2019 18:15:19 GMT -7
Too red for me as well, in that photo. Really doesn't look that red in reality. Took more pics today and will try to get them posted. I chose the burgundy dye because I seem to recall references in trade lists and such to "red handled" scalpers. I used craft maple from Lowe's for the wood as it's what I had on hand and Poplar would seem too soft, but, I didn't really want it to look like maple. Box wood looks yellow to me in the pics I've seen of it, and i have yellow Fiebing's, but I really don't like yellow except for my arrow fletching.
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Post by brokennock on Apr 29, 2019 20:20:13 GMT -7
Okay, so, here is a comparison to the original. I bought these as a matched pair many years ago, off the Frontier Folk message board I believe. Like the knives, hate the tacks, don't think the tacks are right for my time and place either. I wish I'd cut the pins shorter, I thought I could work them down with the thickness of the scales, but, using only a file and sandpaper, no belt sander/grinder, the pins being harder than the wood it was getting difficult to work both evenly.
I don't sharpen the blade all the way to that "too close to my knuckle" back corner on the original
So, I reshaped it while I was working on this one,
Last shot for now,
I've put a little boiled linseed on it, do the pro's here think I can still use a little Fiebing's "medium brown" to take the edge off the red? I plan to put one more application of oil, let it sit a few days, then heat and apply bee's wax.
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Post by Black Hand on Apr 29, 2019 22:40:40 GMT -7
The red wood was an exotic species IIRC, Padouk which has a reddish-brown color and is a little brighter when fresh-cut. www.wood-database.com/african-padauk/www.bellforestproducts.com/padauk/Most I've seen appear painted, which just doesn't look right to me.... That said, I'm fairly certain stained versions imitating Padouk probably existed in the period.
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Post by brokennock on Apr 30, 2019 0:29:52 GMT -7
Thanks for the links. I kind of figured period knives would have been handled with some type of reddish exotic hardwood. There are several that have a lot of red in them, varying between samples. Paint would seem a poor idea as it would chip and peel.
I may rub these down with some steel wool and denatured alcohol to take the linseed oil from the surface then quickly rub on a little brown dye.
In case anyone is wondering there is a hidden pin in the place of the last one (working from blade to butt) on the original. I drilled my pin hole only a quarter of the way into each scale and cut a line to the appropriate length. Figured this would help with strength and stability, while maintaining the English 2 pin look.
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Post by Black Hand on May 5, 2019 12:05:20 GMT -7
Thanks for the links. I kind of figured period knives would have been handled with some type of reddish exotic hardwood. There are several that have a lot of red in them, varying between samples. Paint would seem a poor idea as it would chip and peel. I may rub these down with some steel wool and denatured alcohol to take the linseed oil from the surface then quickly rub on a little brown dye. Have you made any progress on your knife?
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Post by brokennock on May 5, 2019 16:15:25 GMT -7
A wee bit. I did hit it with steel wool and some brown dye. Almost seemed to bring the red out more. I've added 2 more applications of b.l.o. and will give those a few days to a week then apply some heat and beeswax. I'm planning to polish off as much if not all of that rough black "finish" that you see on the original. Then resharpen to a convex edge with no secondary bevel. I'll probably start the sheath between handle wax and sharpening.
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lrb
City-dweller
Posts: 27
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Post by lrb on May 9, 2019 7:41:14 GMT -7
Thanks for the links. I kind of figured period knives would have been handled with some type of reddish exotic hardwood. There are several that have a lot of red in them, varying between samples. Paint would seem a poor idea as it would chip and peel. I may rub these down with some steel wool and denatured alcohol to take the linseed oil from the surface then quickly rub on a little brown dye. In case anyone is wondering there is a hidden pin in the place of the last one (working from blade to butt) on the original. I drilled my pin hole only a quarter of the way into each scale and cut a line to the appropriate length. Figured this would help with strength and stability, while maintaining the English 2 pin look. Hi. My first time here. I do not want to seem to be a buttinsky, or know it all, because I don't, but, It is the French trade scalpers that commonly show the two pins. A recent underwater find of a large amount of French boucherons show that at least some had slab grips and three pins, but still had the tapered half tang. The third pin being near the butt acting as more security for the two halves. English scalpers, the more common ones, will have three small diameter pins through a half tang, which can be tapered in thickness, or uniform in thickness, and a one piece slotted grip. Most commonly Beechwood, but often reddish exotics, and boxwood. I would think painted to be possible, as some English trade guns were painted. The English commonly have a blade heel much as yours, while the French is most always rounded. English pins are commonly 3/32" and even as little as 1/16" in diameter. The French most often are 1/8" in diameter. The pins are in reality rivets. You make a shallow countersink and peen the ends down, then dress the excess off with a file. English one piece grips were most often over sized in width and left a channel underneath the tang. Some say these channels were filled with pitch and brick dust, but as to my knowledge no one has yet found any traces of pitch on recovered artifacts. The English drilled their holes through the tangs low of center in order for the finished oversized grip to appear to have the pins centered. It is speculated that the English used a one size grip to fit all in a certain range of blade lengths, and that is why they are over sized on common scalpers. I don't know, but that sounds like a rational reason.
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Post by brokennock on May 9, 2019 13:11:58 GMT -7
Thank you Wick. I was hoping you would find your way here, in fact it was mentioned in a discussion B.H., Hawkeyes, and I had the other day.
I plan to redo the handle on the other knife when this one is done and will keep your info in mind.
Do you think they shaped the handle, diamond,octagon, etc. before fitting them to the tang? Thus not having to file through the pin while trying to get the right size and shape?
Those pins are 1/8th steel rod cause it was what I could get at Lowe's. I had a slightly thinner nail I wanted to use, but I couldn't find a second one the same size in my mess.
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lrb
City-dweller
Posts: 27
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Post by lrb on May 9, 2019 13:43:44 GMT -7
Yeah, you would about have to have the handle pre-shaped at least close, because the pins were rivets, and the grip tapers forward.
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lrb
City-dweller
Posts: 27
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Post by lrb on May 9, 2019 14:04:35 GMT -7
I start with a trued and squared block of wood of proper length and thickness. I mark a center line on what will be the top, and saw to the length needed for the half tang. That done, I use a couple of tiny dots of super glue to hold the blade on the grip in proper position. Then drill through the holes in the tang on through the grip. To remove the glued blade from the grip, just smack it on a hard surface. It will pop right off. Unless you used too much glue. From there I shape, rough sand, install pins, rivet the ends, dress off the ends finish sand and apply a few coats of clear finish. I prefer Minwax Antique Oil. Usually two coats will do it. Just wipe it on with a rag or your finger. The front of the grip should extend into the blade beyond the blade heel somewhere between 1/8" and 1/4", and if English, the grip width should extend downward past the tang about 1/16", give or take a tad, leaving an open gap in the saw cut. It is claimed by some, that the French knives had grips fitted to, or very close to the tang leaving no obvious gap. The English drilled their tangs low of center so that the pins would appear centered in the over wide grips. You will see this on most all English artifact blades. On English scalpers, some had tapered half tangs, and some had full thickness tangs. Those with full thickness all seem to have had a high carbon blade forge welded to a soft iron tang, left full thickness to prevent bending in use. A well cleaned artifact blade of this type will show the weld joint by texture and color. The tapered tanged English seem to have been all one piece tempered steel.
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Post by brokennock on May 10, 2019 22:38:30 GMT -7
Thank you good sir. I'm going to make notes of that last post to follow next time.
Was thinking of cutting that other one down to half tang and trying to do a ball end handle like was discussed on the other forum.
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Post by brokennock on May 10, 2019 22:42:27 GMT -7
I use my knives a lot. These not so much as I wound up not liking the handles and mostly just carried them and used them during b.p. deer season. If they come out so that I like them, they will get worked. That said, I'm skeptical about the comfort of working a lot with a gap where my fingers curl around the bottom of the grip. Has anyone here done a lot of knife work using a grip like with said gap?
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