|
Post by brokennock on Jun 12, 2019 6:13:53 GMT -7
A thread in that other place has me asking a question here I've wondered about for a long time. I've assumed the answer is no, but, my assumptions have been known to be wrong. With modern knives, in modern conditions, I really like carrying my knife horizontally across the small of my back. Any historical evidence for this?
|
|
|
Post by Sicilianhunter on Jun 12, 2019 7:33:07 GMT -7
Nock, I will also assume no, in most cases, due the standard methods of other gear carried afield. With horns, pouches, bundles and packs of various types slung across the torso I would think anything that far back on your belt might not be very accessible. Then again, it may not be placed that far back to be in a "quick draw" position, as it may be a heavier knife than others placed in more handy locations. However, at the card table without field gear to encumber you, that might be an excellent form of carry (from one Sicilian to another, of course!!) It would be interesting to hear what LeLoup and Spence have to say about this...
|
|
|
Post by paranger on Jun 12, 2019 8:36:47 GMT -7
I have not seen much (any) evidence of sheaths with belt loops in tbe 18th c. Surviving back seam sheaths, to my knowledge, do not have evidence of such provisions. It seems they were typically stuffed in a belt or sash, or tied on to a belt or shooting bag with a leather thong or such. That set up would make a horizontal carry rig difficult, I should think. That said, I lean on Ken Hamilton's excellent research in all things regarding period cutlery. I can point you to some excellent threads by him on another forum if desired...
|
|
spence
Hunter
Posts: 1,610
Member is Online
|
Post by spence on Jun 12, 2019 9:15:10 GMT -7
I don't recall ever seeing any documentation of knives in my reading, except once when an Indian threw one at Gen. Sam Dale. I wound up just doing what came naturally, stuffing my butcher knife and sheath under my belt or sash on my left front where it is handy. I found out quickly that it could slip out unnoticed, so I put a thong on the sheath to fasten it to the belt or sash, and that has worked very well for me.
These days I've been using a folding pocketknife a lot more, and I carry that in my shot pouch. It serves well for everything, cutting tow for wadding, cutting patches at the muzzle, field dressing and butchering a deer, cleaning small game, whittling roasting sticks for my lunch and carving my roasted meat, etc.
Spence
|
|
|
Post by Black Hand on Jun 12, 2019 10:38:12 GMT -7
AJ Miller shows a knife (knives?) carried tucked in the back of the belt during the Fur Trade, not horizontally, but almost (depending on sheath design)... www.wyohistory.org/sites/default/files/styles/gallery_large/public/millergallery9.jpgI know a few people that carry their knife in the back during period events, but it makes me nervous - I like my knife up front on the left at an angle for ease of use. For EDC, since I usually wear a jacket, a knife carried in the back might be considered "concealed" in MT depending on how you interpret the regulations. I do have a folder easily available in my front pocket (clip), as does nearly everyone else.
|
|
|
Post by straekat on Jun 12, 2019 15:44:47 GMT -7
My personal preference is to wear/carry items that I can see without moving my head much, or shifting the axis of front/back arm movements during walking to a slightly angled one and intentionally brush my lower arm or elbow against my side/back hip to feel if anything is missing. Economy of motion around wildlife is a good skill to have. That means a knife worn in the front is easier to reach and with less movement than one worn behind the back.
|
|
|
Post by straekat on Jun 12, 2019 16:00:02 GMT -7
For EDC, since I usually wear a jacket, a knife carried in the back might be considered "concealed" in MT depending on how you interpret the regulations. I do have a folder easily available in my front pocket (clip), as does nearly everyone else.
I was thinking along the same lines, however I didn't post anything about this as it could branch out into OT discussions. A small folder isn't going to generate the problems a larger fixed blade sheath knife can even if it's worn openly on a belt.
|
|
|
Post by Black Hand on Jun 12, 2019 16:19:15 GMT -7
For me, it is a matter of convenience and utility. I also worry about cutting my shirt or stabbing myself in the back trying to get the blade back in the sheath. Having had a few encounters with sharp blades makes me wary of their effects on flesh...added another scar to the collection just a couple weeks ago.
|
|
Keith
City-dweller
Bushfire close but safe now. Getting some good rain.
Posts: 990
|
Post by Keith on Jun 12, 2019 19:25:46 GMT -7
This is what we know about knife carrying in the 18th century. 1) Some woodsrunners carried three knives. 2) Common carrying methods were: under the belt at the front, carried in the legging, & neck knives. To date I have not come across any documentation to say that a knife was carried at the back, but, the carrying of tools is a personal choice, so really no one can say that a knife was not carried at the back by someone at some time. I carry my tomahawk at my back. I carry my hunting knife to my left front under the belt & my pistol under the belt on the right. This is done because the pistol has a left hand lock, & I prefer this hunting knife, pistol combination carried this way. I carry a legging knife in my right legging, & I carry a clasp knife in my waistcoat pocket. There is a period account of a hunter carrying his belt axe on his left side under the belt. One day he slipped on ice, fell on his side on top of his belt axe & severed his left hand at the wrist. I find it safer to carry my tomahawk at my back with the blade wrapped in leather. This is my personal choice, & I have been carrying my tools this way for at least the past 30 years. It is to me, all to do with experience & personal choice, if you find it easier & more comfortable & accessible to carry your knife or tomahawk in a certain manner, then that is your choice. Your carry method may have been influenced by another woodsrunner or it may not have, regardless sooner or later you will choose a method that suits you best, & no one can say "they didn't carry knives like that", because we simply do not know. There may be a very practicle reason for not carrying a knife at your back, I doubt anyone would carry a tomahawk & a knife at their back. IF for some reason I were going to carry a spare knife, then I would carry it in my knapsack. Just think it out in a practicle manner. You would probably not for instance carry your shot pouch hanging down your front suspended from your neck, but you could carry a neck knife. Basically it comes down as I said to experience, practicality & common sense. You want to carry a knife at your back, try it out & see if it works for you. Keith.
|
|
|
Post by brokennock on Jun 12, 2019 21:52:08 GMT -7
Thanks for the replies gentlemen. I mostly posted cause we needed some conversation and I have been curious to try and confirm my suspicions.
When I carry this ways in modern everyday clothes and gear, it is generally a small 2" to 3" fixed blade in a kydex sheath. It keeps the knife out of the way, doesn't get in the way when sitting like a knife in front of the body a the waist line can, and doesn't interfere with the position of my sidearm or spare magazine/s on my off side. Despite a bunch of training and practice, and years of carrying one or more,,,, I hate folding knives, except for a good balisong. But that is modern gear.
PaRanger, I read Mr. Hamilton's posts on the F.F. forum, and have had multiple private message conversations with him there.
Keith, while I agree that we can't really prove that knives weren't carried this way during the Colonial period here in America, my thinking for doubting it is based on a lack of any indication of sheaths that would be appropriate for this method of carry. It is a mode of carry that has several benefits, but, definatley has its problems as well, especially given the limitations of materials and construction of sheaths at the time. I do usually carry a 2 1/8" or 2 1/16" hunting knife in a neck sheath, a knife like the one in my posts about my rehandle project either in my belt the way most have mentioned in a cross draw position or hanging from my shot pouch. My hawk rides horizontally across the top of my haversack on my off side. I usually have a spare heavier duty 3" drop point hunter stashed somewhere in my gear.
|
|
Keith
City-dweller
Bushfire close but safe now. Getting some good rain.
Posts: 990
|
Post by Keith on Jun 13, 2019 2:11:36 GMT -7
Thanks for the replies gentlemen. I mostly posted cause we needed some conversation and I have been curious to try and confirm my suspicions. When I carry this ways in modern everyday clothes and gear, it is generally a small 2" to 3" fixed blade in a kydex sheath. It keeps the knife out of the way, doesn't get in the way when sitting like a knife in front of the body a the waist line can, and doesn't interfere with the position of my sidearm or spare magazine/s on my off side. Despite a bunch of training and practice, and years of carrying one or more,,,, I hate folding knives, except for a good balisong. But that is modern gear. PaRanger, I read Mr. Hamilton's posts on the F.F. forum, and have had multiple private message conversations with him there. Keith, while I agree that we can't really prove that knives weren't carried this way during the Colonial period here in America, my thinking for doubting it is based on a lack of any indication of sheaths that would be appropriate for this method of carry. It is a mode of carry that has several benefits, but, definatley has its problems as well, especially given the limitations of materials and construction of sheaths at the time. I do usually carry a 2 1/8" or 2 1/16" hunting knife in a neck sheath, a knife like the one in my posts about my rehandle project either in my belt the way most have mentioned in a cross draw position or hanging from my shot pouch. My hawk rides horizontally across the top of my haversack on my off side. I usually have a spare heavier duty 3" drop point hunter stashed somewhere in my gear. I was assuming that the period sheath design would still be used, if you can carry it in the front, then you can carry it at the back. However, as I stated, common practice is carry at the front, in the legging & neck knives. Keith.
|
|
|
Post by Sicilianhunter on Jun 13, 2019 7:13:12 GMT -7
Ken Hamilton is Great resource on period knives and their history !!! I just finish a neck sheath for a mora knife although its a bit larger then the one Nock mentioned, not sure if it will be too large for that type carriage yet.
|
|
|
Post by Black Hand on Jun 13, 2019 7:39:05 GMT -7
Neck knives seem to be more of a Native thing and I avoid things hanging in front anyways - they get in my way. I have a knife in my belt, a folder in my bag and usually another folder in my pocket. I tried a leg knife briefly, but after having to find it after it jumped out, it has occasionally been carried clipped to the arm opening of my waistcoat.
|
|
Keith
City-dweller
Bushfire close but safe now. Getting some good rain.
Posts: 990
|
Post by Keith on Jun 13, 2019 17:09:21 GMT -7
Neck knives seem to be more of a Native thing and I avoid things hanging in front anyways - they get in my way. I have a knife in my belt, a folder in my bag and usually another folder in my pocket. I tried a leg knife briefly, but after having to find it after it jumped out, it has occasionally been carried clipped to the arm opening of my waistcoat. I agree, but then there are the Indian influenced woodsrunners to bare in mind. The knife you carry clipped under your armpit reminds me of the Scots method of carrying a sgian achlais. Unfortunately to date I have not been able to find any documentation on the sgian achlais, or how exactly it was carried/secured. Keith. www.tartansauthority.com/highland-dress/highland-weapons/www.gaelicthemes.net/index.php/articles/3-the-history-of-sgian-dubh
|
|
|
Post by Black Hand on Jun 13, 2019 18:49:40 GMT -7
...then there are the Indian influenced woodsrunners to bare in mind. I happen to be one of these...
|
|