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Post by spence on Nov 23, 2019 10:52:41 GMT -7
I've puzzled over descriptive shoe terms and worked on them a fair bit without a lot of progress. The only thing I've ever found about "channel" is the groove cut around the edge of the sole before it is stitched on to lower the stitch into the leather so it won't be worn through. There is open and closed channeling described. I don't know if this is what was meant in the day, but it seems possible they meant something else when they say "shoes or channels". Another term is "turned" shoes. That means the shoe is made by stitching the sole and upper together inside out and then turning them right side out. Mostly for light, flexible women's shoes, but sometimes another, heaver sole is put on after turning for men's shoes. As for dogskin, they did use dog leather for several things. The Pennsylvania Gazette February 15, 1759 ANDREW BREEHEL, Furrier, In Third street, near Market street, Philadelphia, GIVES the following Prices for the Skins hereafter mentioned, viz. For the largest white tame English Rabbit Skins Eighteen pence; for the largest blue Ditto Ninepence; for the best grey Ditto Sixpence; for the best black Ditto Eightpence; for good (all black) tame Cat skins One Shilling; for the best grey Ditto Sixpence or Eight pence; for all black or all white smooth or hairy Dog skins Two or Three Shillings. and for all other Sorts of Skins he gives the Philadelphia Market Price. N.B. The abovesaid Skins are good till the latter End of March, till which Time the said Breehel will give the Prices abovementioned, but will not give the full Price afterwards. THE SOUTH-CAROLINA GAZETTE November 17, 1766 Mansell, Corbett, & Co. CHARLES-TOWN Messrs. CROFT & DART, in Tradd-street : Where they have to dispose of at a VERY LOW ADVANCE ; A general assortment of GOODS, Imported in the Two-Friends, Samuel Ball , master, from LONDON :… mens buck gloves, buck and dog skin breeches The Pennsylvania Gazette July 11, 1771 JOHN SPARHAWK, At the London Bookstore, and Unicorn and Mortar, in Second street, four doors below the Friends Meeting house, has received, per Captain Osborne, from London,…. leather backgammon tables; mens neat doe and dog skin gloves; The Pennsylvania Gazette May 12, 1773 JUST IMPORTED, in the last vessels from BRITAIN and IRELAND.... mens and boys best buck and dog skin gloves; The SOUTH-CAROLINA GAZETTE October 7, 1756 ARCHIBALD & RICHARD PARK STOBO HAVE just imported, in the Minerva , Capt. Westlade, from London.... mens neat dog skin flat London-made saddles Here's a link to a glossary of shoe terms which is helpful: books.google.com/books?id=4J1CAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA63&lpg=PA63&dq=what+are+turned+channel+shoes&source=bl&ots=gGtt_qFoV5&sig=ACfU3U3LyWlcBXhSTUIMUTHUZtTSK4AeVw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwif_Jna5IDmAhURWqwKHRHjBJwQ6AEwDHoECA0QAQ#v=snippet&q=pump&f=falseSpence
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Post by Black Hand on Nov 23, 2019 11:06:43 GMT -7
My old Lab would be horrified...
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Post by artificer on Nov 23, 2019 12:34:47 GMT -7
This is the one that has me puzzled... It's a hide, so, I guess it can be made into leather. Seems horrid to us now, but we look at our dogs differently than they did I think. In the mid 1970's, I purchased a very large rectangle of hair on tanned leather and was not quite sure what it was when I bought it. It was large enough to use for a "ground cloth" under the bedding for the wife and I. However, when someone informed us it was horse hide, she would not sleep on it again, even though we always had some kind of cloth or blanket over it. I thought about cutting it up to make it into Shot Pouches/Hunting Bags, but that didn't go over at all, either. Finally was able to trade it to someone who didn't care it was horse hide. Gus
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Post by Black Hand on Nov 23, 2019 12:42:19 GMT -7
I have no attachment to horses, so it would not have bothered me.
As to dog: I'd eat dog if it was served to me, but wouldn't eat my own dog. It would be like eating my own child...which he is.
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Post by artificer on Nov 23, 2019 12:42:35 GMT -7
The "braided shoes," catches my interest as to what they may have been. As does, more so, "buckskin boots." One could take this to imply some type of high top moccasin but maybe with a sole added? On the "braided shoes," I think that was a type of shoe made of braided fabric, though I'm no expert on period women's shoes. However and according to one of the trips I made to the Cordwainer's Shop in Colonial Williamsburg, they had on display a pair of "buckskin boots" that were made with cow leather soles and heels and buckskin uppers. So at least from their research, you hit it on the head. Gus
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Post by artificer on Nov 23, 2019 13:13:28 GMT -7
I've puzzled over descriptive shoe terms and worked on them a fair bit without a lot of progress. The only thing I've ever found about "channel" is the groove cut around the edge of the sole before it is stitched on to lower the stitch into the leather so it won't be worn through. There is open and closed channeling described. I don't know if this is what was meant in the day, but it seems possible they meant something else when they say "shoes or channels". Spence Very interesting, Spence. Thank you. Back in the early 1980's, I wanted to make a new leather scabbard to replace the old/poorly made replacement on our Family 1850 Foot Officer's Sword. However, I did not know then how to stitch leather flat end to flat end. I remembered that was how 18th century Dice Cups were made, so on our next trip to Colonial Williamsburg, I was eager to visit the Cordwainer's and Harness Shops. My parents accompanied me and we waited for quite some time to get close to the Cordwainer to ask questions. I grabbed a dice cup off the counter where they displayed shoes, slippers, boots and other things they made and pointed to the stitch and asked, "Just how do you make this stitch?" The Cordwainer beamed and invited me around the counter into their working area, sat me down on one of their work benches and showed me curved awls and needles. He also gave me instructions on hand stitching with a threaded needle in each hand. Then he showed me a lot about how they made shoes. Though of course I don't remember everything he showed me, I do remember the way they sewed the uppers to the soles, because I asked how they did it and the stitching was not evident? He showed me how they sliced into the leather all around the sole and stitched up through the sliced area into the leather upper. Once the stitching was done, I think they glued the sliced area with hide glue, though he didn't show me that. That made the sliced area solid and hid the stitching to protect the stitching and make it more esthetically pleasing. A couple of years later, I visited the Cobbler's Shop at Historic Winston/Salem. The didn't stitch the uppers to soles in the same manner as at the Cordwainers shop in Williamsburg, but rather stitched down through the soles into grooves/channels cut all around the bottom of the soles so the stitches would not be abraded by wear when walking. They filled the stitched channels with Black Ball compound for some water resistance. I was surprised to see that and mentioned how it differed from the shoes made at Williamsburg. The Cobbler explained they were "merely Cobblers" and not Cordwainers as found in Williamsburg. Their shoes at that time were much "coarser" than the ones made at Williamsburg. They explained they made period "country shoes" and that's how many/most shoes were made on plantations/farms from leather workers who were not trained Cordwainers and less skilled at making shoes. However, since the 1980's, it seems Historic Winston/Salem shoes have been made to the higher levels found in Colonial Williamsburg. I don't think the stitching into the grooves/channels on the bottom of the soles of the shoes would have been advertised by a Cordwainer in Williamsburg in the period, though, so I was glad to read your explanation. Gus
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Post by artificer on Nov 23, 2019 13:31:36 GMT -7
I have no attachment to horses, so it would not have bothered me. As to dog: I'd eat dog if it was served to me, but wouldn't eat my own dog. It would be like eating my own child...which he is. I know what you mean. I had some experience working horses in my youth and had up to six "partial" Arabians my second wife purchased when we lived in Califfornia, but I was never that close to a horse, either. My dogs have always been my four legged children, though. Gus
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Keith
City-dweller
Bushfire close but safe now. Getting some good rain.
Posts: 990
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Post by Keith on Nov 23, 2019 17:01:52 GMT -7
Thank you Keith. What fires? The catastrophic bushfires here in NSW & Queensland. Keith.
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Keith
City-dweller
Bushfire close but safe now. Getting some good rain.
Posts: 990
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Post by Keith on Nov 23, 2019 19:00:22 GMT -7
I am perusing (window shopping as I'm still broke, but I'll call it "researching" for when I'm not) the Fugawee website and have a few basic questions. The 1st I'm sure has been discussed before elsewhere, probably ad nauseum, but I don't feel like sifting through all b.s. on some other forums. How early can the hi-lo boots be considered acceptable? I know better than to trust a vendor's claim of what dates am item can represent. They claim as early as 1747. Thoughts? Proof? I'm also looking at 2 different pairs of shoes. What are the thoughts and evidence for rough side out or smooth side out leather? Natural color instead of black? My thought was always smooth side out and black, but, I do like the look of the natural color rough side out. Especially if worn with "indian leggings." Thanks, Dave “No. 8” in a series by George Morland (1763-1804) The Labourer’s Luncheon. No. 8 The Labourer’s Luncheon was published on 20 Dec. 1797, engraved by C. Tosi, printed by I.R. Smith in London. The style is right, but still we are looking at late 18th century. Keith.
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Post by brokennock on Nov 23, 2019 20:05:55 GMT -7
Neat painting. Seems odd that the boots are being worn outside the leggings. Affecting much the same look as having tall wool socks with the pants tucked in as has been known in the last century and this one, in some places.
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Post by Black Hand on Nov 23, 2019 20:18:58 GMT -7
Neat painting. Seems odd that the boots are being worn outside the leggings. Affecting much the same look as having tall wool socks with the pants tucked in as has been known in the last century and this one, in some places. Looks like knee-breeches and hose/stockings.
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Post by spence on Nov 23, 2019 21:04:24 GMT -7
Very good, Keith, thanks. I notice something in the painting which I've seen in several others from the period. Both the men are wearing breeches which tie at the knee instead of buckle, which is what we would expect for common folk, but notice the man standing, his ties are untied, and he has on no stockings. I worked on the painting, enlarged and brightened it, and I believe the seated man has his shoes (shoe boots?) over stockings, not leggings. I think I can see ribbing....? Or maybe his stockings are just too big and floppy, which is also frequently seen in such painting of laborers or people in the lower socio-economic bracket. It also seems to show the laces wrapped around the top of the shoes. Tied in the back? Spence
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Keith
City-dweller
Bushfire close but safe now. Getting some good rain.
Posts: 990
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Post by Keith on Nov 23, 2019 21:34:08 GMT -7
I agree Spence, looks like stockings to me too. Keith.
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ewoaf
City-dweller
Posts: 203
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Post by ewoaf on Feb 13, 2020 8:04:15 GMT -7
Braided means it's got some kind of braid on it like metallic braid trim or could even mean worsted tape I suppose. Dog skin was just that. Kind of like kid skin today it was commonly used for ladies gloves and shoe lining. Fugawee highlows are barely alright at best. They existed but were so uncommon as to be undesirable for living history purposes. I know of only one or two folks reproducing a good half boot, so expensively as to make the purchase impractical for most. Nothing wrong with a buckle shoe for literally any portrayal.
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Post by Sicilianhunter on Feb 13, 2020 10:34:05 GMT -7
Braided means it's got some kind of braid on it like metallic braid trim or could even mean worsted tape I suppose. Dog skin was just that. Kind of like kid skin today it was commonly used for ladies gloves and shoe lining. Fugawee highlows are barely alright at best. They existed but were so uncommon as to be undesirable for living history purposes. I know of only one or two folks reproducing a good half boot, so expensively as to make the purchase impractical for most. Nothing wrong with a buckle shoe for literally any portrayal. Didn’t realize they were that uncommon!? Thanks for the info The Sicilian
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