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Post by armando on Feb 19, 2020 4:39:04 GMT -7
I've made a few beginner leather projects (possibles bags, medicine bags, flute case, shooter's wallet, etc) but have found that my first attempts at simple shooting bags were too "floppy" because of the lightweight leather I used. My question: if I'm making my next bag out of 8 or 9oz leather, what was the historically correct hide to use (and weight)? Are softer bags historically correct? I have some bison that I'd love to use but is very light, probably 3-5oz. I have some buckskins I harvested from this deer season but I haven't fleshed them yet (I freeze all my hides from trapping and deer season and do all my fleshing in the spring). I will on tanning those for some projects next fall and I'll come back with even more questions then.
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Keith
City-dweller
Bushfire close but safe now. Getting some good rain.
Posts: 990
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Post by Keith on Feb 19, 2020 15:07:45 GMT -7
I've made a few beginner leather projects (possibles bags, medicine bags, flute case, shooter's wallet, etc) but have found that my first attempts at simple shooting bags were too "floppy" because of the lightweight leather I used. My question: if I'm making my next bag out of 8 or 9oz leather, what was the historically correct hide to use (and weight)? Are softer bags historically correct? I have some bison that I'd love to use but is very light, probably 3-5oz. I have some buckskins I harvested from this deer season but I haven't fleshed them yet (I freeze all my hides from trapping and deer season and do all my fleshing in the spring). I will on tanning those for some projects next fall and I'll come back with even more questions then. I have only ever used deer hide for making moccasins, but with every animal there are parts of the hide that are heavier than other parts. The back is heavier than the belly. Cattle hide works well. Too soft is no good & too heavy is just as bad unless you add a gusset. Most of my leather gear is made from second hand leather from op-shops, but I made my shot pouch from greasy split. I think that providing you don't use the lighter clothing weight leather you should be fine. The larger the pouch, the floppier it will be, but you do not need a large pouch for a shot pouch. Keith.
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Post by artificer on Feb 20, 2020 7:00:22 GMT -7
My question: if I'm making my next bag out of 8 or 9oz leather, what was the historically correct hide to use (and weight)? Are softer bags historically correct? I have some bison that I'd love to use but is very light, probably 3-5oz. Armando,
Great questions and I'm going to do a "data dump" on you, so if you don't understand something, please ask more questions.
Let's begin with period tanning processes, which for our purposes can be broken down into the following for most of the leather folks will use. There are some other period processes, but really not much used for the kind of things we make for most things in our hobby. OK, the processes were:
1. Vegetable (Veg) Tan or Oak Tan, sometimes referred to in the period as (Commercial) Vat Tanning. All of these describe the tanning process where the tannins came from Oak Bark or other plants that have natural high levels of tannin to tan the leather. This was one of the main ways commercial tanners in the period tanned and processed the leather. The leather is smooth on one side and rough on the other. Tandy uses both names to describe some of their leather that is period correct for our usage. For belts, straps, Shot or Hunting Pouches, flint wallets, etc., etc. depending on the oz. weight of the leather. You can dye this leather in almost any color you want.
2. Oil Tan. Oil-tanning is a process of working natural oil/s (and sometimes natural waxes as well) into the leather after the initial vegetable tanning. In the period, this was known as "Oil Stuffed," or "Stuffed" or even just "Stufft" and again was a commercial tanned leather in the period. This leather still has a smooth and rough side, but the "temper" or pliability/flexibility of the leather is more than Veg/Oak Tan, because of the oils worked into it. Used for the same things as for Oak Tan, but the oil in made/make it better for outside uses. Most suppliers simply call this Oil Tan today. Leather for High quality Bridles and Saddles were often Oil Tan, though not exclusively. You CAN NOT dye this leather because of the oils/waxes in it, so you must choose a color you like to use it.
3. Brain Tan or Indian Tan. The actual brains of the animal was used to get the tannins to tan the leather. The tanning could be done in small pits, so both Native Americans and most folks on the Frontier had their own small tanning pits. When Brain Tanned leather is smoked, it will turn color and be even more flexible. This leather was used on the frontier for Shot/Hunting Bags, other things and even clothing and leggings.
What you DON'T want is modern Chrome Tan or Mineral Tan or Arsenic Tan leather, just to give you some examples from beyond our period. I would also advise against modern "Split" or "Splits." For example, Tandy sells Cowhide Splits that are soft on both sides, but is tanned the wrong way and will not serve you well and is not authentic.
OK, what kinds of leather were available? Well, if the skin was from an animal, it could and was turned into leather in the period. Cow, Bull, Calf, Bison, Oxen, Horse, Elk, Deer, Sheep, Pig, Whistle Pig/Ground Hog, Fox, Wolf, Squirrels, Possums, Muskrats, etc., etc., etc. and even Dog skin was common for some uses including boots. Beaver and other valuable fur skins could also have used, but were more commonly traded back to the east and to Europe and this included a huge number of deer skins as well.
I'm VERY glad you asked before you tried using 8 to 9 oz. leather for a Shot Pouch or Hunting Bag. Military Cartridge Pouches and Cartridge Pouches were made of Veg Tan leather that thick, but NOT civilian Shot/Hunting Pouches/Bags as it is WAY too thick. That thickness of leather is also good for center seam Knife Sheaths, though they made these out of a little less oz. weight in the period.
Not sure how much you know about leather pieces and weights, but this link is pretty standard, though I personally think a bit thin on leather thicknesses: www.tandyleather.ca/en/leather-buying-guide.html
The oz. weight suggested for a Shot/Hunting Pouch/Bag are different, depending on what type of leather you use and whether you want to dye it yourself or not.
If you want to dye it, then you want Veg Tan/Oak Tan cowhide. Some to many folks prefer a 3 - 3 1/2 oz. thickness for this use. Personally and since I work my leather by bending and rolling to soften the temper, I like 3 1/2 - 4 oz. leather or a bit thicker.
Now Oil Tan leather can be very surprising and especially if you are used to Oak Tan oz. thicknesses. To me, I was very surprised how much thinner it was for the same oz. weight compared to Veg/Oak Tan. For example, Tandy's "Stoned Oil Sides" are 4 to 4.5 oz., but compare to the thickness of Veg Tan 3 1/2 oz. leather. www.tandyleather.com/en/product/stoned-oil-sides
To me, I really like the Kodiak Sides, which are advertised as 4 to 5 oz., but compare to 3 1/2 - 4 oz. Veg. Tan. I really liked this stuff in my local Tandy Store. However, I was very disappointed to find the smooth side of the leather has a machine impressed surface that is not authentic. So I would have to go to other suppliers to find Oil Tan in this thickness. www.tandyleather.com/en/product/kodiak-oil-tanned-side-lt-tan
Gus
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Post by armando on Feb 20, 2020 7:12:44 GMT -7
Great info! I don't mind the "wisdom drop" at all and value and appreciate it! I have a split of Bison Leather I have laying around from Crazy Crow that is supposedly 3 1/2oz so I might make a small shooting pouch if for nothing else, practice, until I get around to fleshing and tanning those deer hides I have in the freezer. In the meantime, I'm going to look around for those Kodiak sides.
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Post by artificer on Feb 20, 2020 7:13:32 GMT -7
Oh, forgot to mention deer skin, sorry. Back in the late 70's, I tanned one and ONLY one deer skin I had shot using the authentic Brain Tan method. It took an unbelievable amount of work and that's why I will never do it again. Authentic Brain Tan buckskin is available from a few sources, but is so prohibitively expensive, it is out the financial realm for most people. There is a commercial substitute for Brain Tan, though, that many people feel is very close to indistinguishable from Brain Tan. It is called "German Tan" and a lot of folks use it for their leggings and some other things. For me, the temper is too flexible/soft for a Shot Pouch or Hunting Bag, though. www.crazycrow.com/buckskin-leather/german-tanned-buckskin-natural-14-22-sf Gus
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Post by artificer on Feb 20, 2020 7:24:00 GMT -7
Great info! I don't mind the "wisdom drop" at all and value and appreciate it! I have a split of Bison Leather I have laying around from Crazy Crow that is supposedly 3 1/2oz so I might make a small shooting pouch if for nothing else, practice, until I get around to fleshing and tanning those deer hides I have in the freezer. In the meantime, I'm going to look around for those Kodiak sides. Again, the Tandy Kodiak sides have a machine impressed/Artificial graining surface that is NOT authentic to our period, so I would very much advise AGAINST using it for our purposes. HOWEVER, the Leather Guy and some others have Oil Tan cow hide that is not machine impressed and at (to me) the nicer 4 to 5 oz. Thickness. Again, choose the color you buy carefully because you can't dye it after you get it. Gus
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Post by artificer on Feb 20, 2020 7:38:40 GMT -7
Armando,
One last general thing. I cannot recommend highly enough that folks actually go to Tandy or another local leather supplier to actually feel the leathers in the different tanning styles and thicknesses. There is nothing quite like feeling the leather yourself, to really understand some things I've mentioned.
Also: many, many times over the years since I stepped into a Tandy Store the first time in 1972, I have looked at Tandy's Oak Tan "Craft" bellies and various pieces, which also don't seem to run true to the standard oz. weight that is advertised. These "Craft" pieces really are too thick for Shot/Hunting Pouches/Bags, but are great for a variety of other uses. I have lost track of how many of these pieces I've used and purchased over the years.
Gus
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Post by Black Hand on Feb 20, 2020 14:04:56 GMT -7
Just a minor correction to the Braintan description above. The brains are not a source of tannins, rather fats that lubricate the fibers. It isn't a true tanning where chemicals bond to/alter the fibers. One can use neatsfoot oil, Ivory soap, egg yolks and other materials to accomplish the same effect.
Tannins are exclusively of plant origin - you've probably met them in tea and red wine, if not in other foods.
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Post by artificer on Feb 20, 2020 14:29:07 GMT -7
Just a minor correction to the Braintan description above. The brains are not a source of tannins, rather fats that lubricate the fibers. It isn't a true tanning where chemicals bond to/alter the fibers. One can use neatsfoot oil, Ivory soap, egg yolks and other materials to accomplish the same effect. Tannins are exclusively of plant origin - you've probably met them in tea and red wine, if not in other foods. Thank you, I didn't know that. I was going by what the Brain Tanning instruction pamphlet said about the brains. Well, anyway after I followed the instructions and smoked the hide, it came out fine. It was just too long and too labor intensive to justify every doing it again, at least for me. Gus
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Post by Black Hand on Feb 20, 2020 14:48:11 GMT -7
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Post by artificer on Feb 21, 2020 3:00:23 GMT -7
Oh, FWIW I had no mentor and not much information was available when I made my first Shot Pouch in 1972. The Tandy Store in Oceanside, CA did not have even commercial tanned buckskin. They did have cowhide splits that were "Goldish Buckskin" Color, so I used that. I did not know how to hand sew leather, so I used matching soft cowhide split lace to lace it up. Didn't look bad at all, but it was so soft it folded in on itself when I carried items needed to shoot my TC Hawken Rifle with it and it was very difficult to find anything inside when I needed. Total bust to try to use it. Years later I found it useful as a storage pouch when hung from an Ozan rope in our Lodge, but that was all. OK, so I learned my lesson on not having leather TOO soft/pliable for a Shot Pouch.
The next Shot Pouch I made was not going to be too soft and I decided I was going to make a sort of Provincial Cartridge Pouch that could be used either for my Brown Bess Carbine or the Hand Built .45 Flint Rifle my best friend often loaned me to shoot. I came across what was called an "Oiled Blacksmith Side" that was maybe 6-7 oz. (NO, this was not Oil Tan Leather I described above.) It was already a rather dark brown, so no need to dye it. To this day I'm not sure what kind of modern commercial tanning was used to tan it, as when I cut the pieces out, the edges were very much lighter in color. That proved to be a problem because the Oiled Hide would not take normal leather dye. I finally solved that a couple years later by experimenting with brown "Edge Kote" and that pretty much did the trick to darken the edges, even though it was not authentic.
I kind of went whole hog and used two Cartridge Pouch Buckles on both sides of the strap like some FIW Military Pouches and there is length adjustment on both sides. I cut the flap with a pointed "double cyma curve" like a Military Pouch Flap and used a pewter button for closure as well. I put a wide welt in it, so I could get my big hand in it and so a removable cartridge block I made would fit inside to do reenacting and an inside panel to divide the pouch into two sections.. (In those days I did probably 80 percent competition shooting in period clothing, 15 percent reenacting and only 5 percent hunting.) Unfortunately, I chose artificial sinew for the thread, but at least it was the last time I used that to make Shot Pouches and other items, after switching over to period correct linen thread shortly after that. It still is my favorite pouch for shooting, as it is so easy to reach inside and feel things I want from the Pouch, but the leather is really too thick for a Hunting Pouch.
From the third Shot Pouch I made, I learned enough to use historically correct leather and thread and made that pouch out of thinner Oak Tan Leather and only used thicker leather for repro Military Cartridge Pouches I made over the years.
I mention these things to show one can make mistakes and learn from them. Hopefully by passing this along, others won't make the same mistakes I did.
Gus.
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Post by agricola on Apr 20, 2020 18:11:25 GMT -7
Oh, forgot to mention deer skin, sorry. Back in the late 70's, I tanned one and ONLY one deer skin I had shot using the authentic Brain Tan method. It took an unbelievable amount of work and that's why I will never do it again. Authentic Brain Tan buckskin is available from a few sources, but is so prohibitively expensive, it is out the financial realm for most people. www.crazycrow.com/buckskin-leather/german-tanned-buckskin-natural-14-22-sf Gus Aw, braintanning ain't *that* bad. We have a lot more information on the process than we did in the late 70s. I just finished one yesterday, and have several more to do this week. (Having the museum closed for the COVID has given me plenty of time to work on stuff at home. Silver linings, I guess.) If I can figure out how to put photos on here (I saw a pinned thread...), I'll chuck a tutorial up. Jay
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Post by armando on Apr 29, 2020 14:08:19 GMT -7
I look forward to learning. I have two buckskins that I chemical tanned (HTF) that came out stiff and hard and don't know if I can fix them or make anything with them.
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Post by hawkeyes on Apr 30, 2020 5:56:18 GMT -7
Bison splits, elk splits or moose splits will work wonderfully and will hold up for years.
Recently started using moose splits and it's absolutely wonderful and extremely strong.
Shy away from lighter splits. Besides real brain tanning only thing close you can buy is leather chamois.
I have brain tanned many and I mean MANY hides, sometimes if you have access to good sales buying leather is a very big time saver. I brain tanned a bison hide by myself last summer, however I absolutely will never do it again.
I recommend Centralia Fur and Hide. Wonderful people to do business with and they also tan their own hides for sale, quality is top notch.
Don't be afraid to brain tan your own hides. People make it far more complicated than it needs to be. It's honestly a very simple process and deer hides are the perfect size not to completely wear you out.
My dad and grandfather ran a trap line many years ago when I was little. They sold furs to the state when they ran their bounty program which included mink, coon, fox and coyote, not to mention deer as hunting them was a yearly endeavor. I'm not just someone who is speaking from tutorials on youtube and reading. I've grown up around tanning hides and have learned the process to different mehtods by doing. It's indeed labor intensive but so much easier to learn by just getting your hands dirty and jumping in.
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Post by artificer on Apr 30, 2020 10:12:03 GMT -7
Bison splits, elk splits or moose splits will work wonderfully and will hold up for years. Recently started using moose splits and it's absolutely wonderful and extremely strong. Hawkeyes, Some questions if you please? Are the splits Veg Tanned? Are the splits rough on both sides of the leather? What weights do the splits generally run? Gus
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