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Post by armando on Feb 25, 2020 15:27:23 GMT -7
Hawkeyes, thanks for the reply, all I have worn are moccasins because I can't afford shoes, but someday I want to get a pair, here are a current pair of mocs that are ready for retirement, I usually add a sole, and this pair have a wool insert, I am surprised how long they have lasted thru all the hunts and trekks. Look forward to trying the pucker toe, thanks for the tips. Man I really like these! That sole! I feel I could put my I feel I could put my Rx insole into this. Did you use a pattern for this?
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Post by Black Hand on Feb 25, 2020 16:06:34 GMT -7
Natives took war trophies of material culture (or traded/exchanged items) while whites seemed to destroy these items. Different value systems...
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Post by Sicilianhunter on Feb 25, 2020 16:08:24 GMT -7
Cool moccs Lenapej, are those the same ones you had on your winter clothing vid three years back? If so, they lasted awhile for sure. NWT Woodsman Winter clothing vid!? Lenapej, do you have a link to share?
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Post by spence on Feb 25, 2020 16:51:37 GMT -7
Black Hand said: "I also don't see moccasins being taken as battle spoils by whites (usually), which might be a consideration with natives."
It did happen, and in both directions:
The Pennsylvania Gazette November 17, 1763 WILLIAMSBURGH, October 21. Extract of a Letter from Captain William Ingles to his Honour the President, dated Fort Hope, October 10, 1763. "On the 12th of September, in the Morning, I was informed, by two of my Men, that they had discovered a Party of Indians, 23 in Number; upon which I immediately set out with 30 Men, and had the Fortune to fall in with them, notwithstanding they had moved their Camp to some small Distance from the Place where they were first discovered, to a more advantageous Situation; when, we have Reason to believe, they intended to prepare for an Attack on some Place or other, as they were getting ready to paint, and had several Hoops to stretch Scalps on. We had got within 70 or 80 Yards of their Camp before we discovered them, when 7 or 8 of our Men fired, but could not do any Execution, by Reason of the Horses which the Indians had tied round them for a Defence. They returned the Fire very briskly, upon which a smart Engagement ensued. Our Men, eager for Revenge, ran in upon them; and the Indians, being seized with a Panic, left us Masters of the Field of Battle. We retook 4 Prisoners they had got on SmithRiver, being the Wife of George Workman, and three of his Children; we also got 30 Horses, 4 Guns, 18 Tomahawks, 2 Spears, 4 War Clubs, 22 Matchcoats , and 32 Pair of Mockasons, with all their Paint, conjuring Utensils, &c. so that I imagine several of the Scoundrels will go naked home. They had three Men killed on the Spot, and we have Reason to believe they had several Men badly wounded. I had one Man killed, and another wounded."
The Pennsylvania Gazette September 29, 1763 PHILADELPHIA Extract of a Letter from Carlisle, September 20, 1763. The Messenger was also informed, that a Party of the Virginia Rangers having, the same Week, come on some Tracks of Indians going out from the Inhabitants, followed them till Evening; when, sending some of their Party to the top of a Hill, they discovered the Indian Fire, and made towards it: And that as they went along, they heard the Enemy fire 15 Guns, which they supposed was the Party emptying their Pieces, as the Day had been wet, in order to clean them; upon which they hasted up, and immediately fired on the Savages, as they sat round the Fire, and killed three of them; the rest fled, leaving behind 13 Guns, and a Number of Moccasons.
The Pennsylvania Gazette October 7, 1756 PHILADELPHIA Extract of a Letter from Dumfries, in Virginia, dated October 1, 1756. Last Week as Ensign Smith was coming from Sibley’s Mill with 12 Men, he was fired upon by a Party of Indians, which he, after a pretty smart Fire of 10 or 15 Minutes, put to Flight, and brought off 16 Matchcoats, 12 or 14 Pair of Moccasons, several Scalping Knives, and 4 very neat French Fuzees, half mounted with Silver. The Bones of an Indian were found near the Place a Day or two after, his Body being destroyed by the Wolves, &c. It was thought there were 20 or 30 Indians."
And in the other direction:
The Pennsylvania Gazette May 7, 1794 INDIAN NEWS WINCHESTER, April 28. From the Kentucky Gazette of March 9. INDIAN NEWS. On Saturday last a scout, consisting of thirteen men left Mount Sterling, in order to trace up some Indian signs that had been discovered a few days before on the waters of Red river; they marched all day on foot without discovering any sign of Indians, concluded themselves in safety, encamped, making several small fires and went to sleep; about day break one of the men got up and began to stir the fire, at that instant a party of Indians, supposed about ten or twelve, fired on the camp, at not more than ten yards distance; the white men ran off, leaving three of their party on the ground, two of which they certainly killed; the Indians got eight guns, twelve blankets, and nearly all their mockasons.
Spence
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Post by spence on Feb 25, 2020 16:55:27 GMT -7
Natives took war trophies of material culture (or traded/exchanged items) while whites seemed to destroy these items. My impression is quite different than that. At least in the east, the value of trophies collected from defeated NAs was usually divided among the victors. They sometimes mention what their share of the take was. Notice in my other post the careful listing of all the items captured. Spence
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Post by spence on Feb 25, 2020 17:04:41 GMT -7
Lenape said: "In reference to the beading and quillwork, It is my opinion, based on what I have read and common sense, that the ornamented mocs would have been reserved for social and ceremonial occasions, and plain mocs would have been used for hunting, war and everyday use, as they tend to wear out rather quickly,..."
I agree. So did Isaac Weld, in the day. "Travels through the states of North America, and the provinces of Upper and Lower Canada, during the years 1795, 1796, and 1797", by: Weld, Isaac
"The moccasin is made of the skin of the deer, elk or buffalo, which is commonly dressed without the hair, and rendered of a deep brown colour by being exposed to the smoke of a wood fire. It is formed of a single piece of leather, with a seam from the toe to the instep, and another behind, similar to that in a common shoe; by means of a thong it is fastened round the instep, just under the anklebone, and is thus made to sit very close to the foot. Round that part where the foot is put in, a flap of the depth of an inch or two is left, which hangs loosely down over the string by which the moccasin is fastened; and this flap as also the seam, are tastefully ornamented with porcupine quills and beads: the flap is edged with tin or copper tags filled with scarlet hair, if the moccasin be intended for a man, and with ribbands [sic] if for a woman. An ornamented moccasin of this sort is only worn in dress, as the ornaments are expensive, and the leather soon wears out; one of the plain leather answers for ordinary use."
Spence
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Post by lenapej on Feb 25, 2020 17:18:36 GMT -7
Hawkeyes, thanks for the reply, all I have worn are moccasins because I can't afford shoes, but someday I want to get a pair, here are a current pair of mocs that are ready for retirement, I usually add a sole, and this pair have a wool insert, I am surprised how long they have lasted thru all the hunts and trekks. Look forward to trying the pucker toe, thanks for the tips. Man I really like these! That sole! I feel I could put my I feel I could put my Rx insole into this. Did you use a pattern for this? Thanks, yes if I remember correctly, I used a pattern shown in one of Mr Kieth Burgess's videos on his YouTube channel, as was mentioned in one of the comments above, woodcrafter76 has a great video on pucker toe mocs as well on his channel.
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Post by lenapej on Feb 25, 2020 17:23:02 GMT -7
Cool moccs Lenapej, are those the same ones you had on your winter clothing vid three years back? If so, they lasted awhile for sure. NWT Woodsman Winter clothing vid!? Lenapej, do you have a link to share? Yes, here is a link to my YouTube channel, I will try to post some videos to this forum soon. www.youtube.com/channel/UCLwcZRBRpUHj8QnmJy_SFfw
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Post by lenapej on Feb 25, 2020 17:27:34 GMT -7
Black Hand said: "I also don't see moccasins being taken as battle spoils by whites (usually), which might be a consideration with natives." It did happen, and in both directions: The Pennsylvania Gazette November 17, 1763 WILLIAMSBURGH, October 21. Extract of a Letter from Captain William Ingles to his Honour the President, dated Fort Hope, October 10, 1763. "On the 12th of September, in the Morning, I was informed, by two of my Men, that they had discovered a Party of Indians, 23 in Number; upon which I immediately set out with 30 Men, and had the Fortune to fall in with them, notwithstanding they had moved their Camp to some small Distance from the Place where they were first discovered, to a more advantageous Situation; when, we have Reason to believe, they intended to prepare for an Attack on some Place or other, as they were getting ready to paint, and had several Hoops to stretch Scalps on. We had got within 70 or 80 Yards of their Camp before we discovered them, when 7 or 8 of our Men fired, but could not do any Execution, by Reason of the Horses which the Indians had tied round them for a Defence. They returned the Fire very briskly, upon which a smart Engagement ensued. Our Men, eager for Revenge, ran in upon them; and the Indians, being seized with a Panic, left us Masters of the Field of Battle. We retook 4 Prisoners they had got on SmithRiver, being the Wife of George Workman, and three of his Children; we also got 30 Horses, 4 Guns, 18 Tomahawks, 2 Spears, 4 War Clubs, 22 Matchcoats , and 32 Pair of Mockasons, with all their Paint, conjuring Utensils, &c. so that I imagine several of the Scoundrels will go naked home. They had three Men killed on the Spot, and we have Reason to believe they had several Men badly wounded. I had one Man killed, and another wounded." The Pennsylvania Gazette September 29, 1763 PHILADELPHIA Extract of a Letter from Carlisle, September 20, 1763. The Messenger was also informed, that a Party of the Virginia Rangers having, the same Week, come on some Tracks of Indians going out from the Inhabitants, followed them till Evening; when, sending some of their Party to the top of a Hill, they discovered the Indian Fire, and made towards it: And that as they went along, they heard the Enemy fire 15 Guns, which they supposed was the Party emptying their Pieces, as the Day had been wet, in order to clean them; upon which they hasted up, and immediately fired on the Savages, as they sat round the Fire, and killed three of them; the rest fled, leaving behind 13 Guns, and a Number of Moccasons.The Pennsylvania Gazette October 7, 1756 PHILADELPHIA Extract of a Letter from Dumfries, in Virginia, dated October 1, 1756. Last Week as Ensign Smith was coming from Sibley’s Mill with 12 Men, he was fired upon by a Party of Indians, which he, after a pretty smart Fire of 10 or 15 Minutes, put to Flight, and brought off 16 Matchcoats, 12 or 14 Pair of Moccasons, several Scalping Knives, and 4 very neat French Fuzees, half mounted with Silver. The Bones of an Indian were found near the Place a Day or two after, his Body being destroyed by the Wolves, &c. It was thought there were 20 or 30 Indians." And in the other direction: The Pennsylvania Gazette May 7, 1794 INDIAN NEWS WINCHESTER, April 28. From the Kentucky Gazette of March 9. INDIAN NEWS. On Saturday last a scout, consisting of thirteen men left Mount Sterling, in order to trace up some Indian signs that had been discovered a few days before on the waters of Red river; they marched all day on foot without discovering any sign of Indians, concluded themselves in safety, encamped, making several small fires and went to sleep; about day break one of the men got up and began to stir the fire, at that instant a party of Indians, supposed about ten or twelve, fired on the camp, at not more than ten yards distance; the white men ran off, leaving three of their party on the ground, two of which they certainly killed; the Indians got eight guns, twelve blankets, and nearly all their mockasons. Spence
Thanks for those great quotes, can I find the PA Gazette online? how do I find stuff like this?
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Post by spence on Feb 25, 2020 18:01:28 GMT -7
I'm not aware of The Pennsylvania Gazette being online directly. There is a subscription service called Accessible Archives which I subscribed to for several years. It is a goldmine of primary documentation, giving you access to all issues of a half-dozen 18th-century newspapers, including the Pennsylvania Gazette. There is also a great deal of other such info from 18th century, and it is a delight to have it at your fingertips. As I said, it's a subscription service, about $100 per year, seems to still be available. www.accessible-archives.com/Spence
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Post by Black Hand on Feb 25, 2020 18:32:46 GMT -7
Excellent information Spence! Thanks for the education.
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Post by hawkeyes on Feb 26, 2020 9:09:54 GMT -7
I assume all the attention paid to correct construction is by those doing a Native American impression? I have difficulty believing whites wearing moccasins for reasons of practicality in the day would be at all concerned with ethnic correctness. Spence I think this is a very important response worth looking over again concerning ones portrayal.
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Post by Sicilianhunter on Feb 26, 2020 10:20:21 GMT -7
Natives took war trophies of material culture (or traded/exchanged items) while whites seemed to destroy these items. My impression is quite different than that. At least in the east, the value of trophies collected from defeated NAs was usually divided among the victors. They sometimes mention what their share of the take was. Notice in my other post the careful listing of all the items captured. Spence Spence, Valuable info!! Thanks!!
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Post by Sicilianhunter on Feb 26, 2020 11:10:42 GMT -7
Man I really like these! That sole! I feel I could put my I feel I could put my Rx insole into this. Did you use a pattern for this? Thanks, yes if I remember correctly, I used a pattern shown in one of Mr Kieth Burgess's videos on his YouTube channel, as was mentioned in one of the comments above, woodcrafter76 has a great video on pucker toe mocs as well on his channel. Lenapej, Agreed!! You tube has been a valuable resource!! Unfortunately, woodcrafter76 hasn’t put out a video in years and apparently snowalker13 has slowed his roll. Thankfully Mr Burgess is prolific!!!
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