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Post by lenapej on Feb 25, 2020 7:57:45 GMT -7
I am somewhat confused on difference between the "center seam", and the "center seam pucker toe" moccasin. I understand that they are made slightly different, but what I mean is, are they from different areas? such as the center seam from the north east, and the pucker toe from the south east? what is confusing to me is I have seen both styles that have been supposedly made from the same tribe/area such as the two pics I have included by the Lenape, granted I am not 100% sure these two are both Lenape, My opinion on Whites wearing moccasins would depend on the area and tribes they are in contact with, correct? So what would a farmer turned hunter/explorer in the western PA and OH country be wearing in the 1750's - 60's, center seam, or pucker toe? Thanks.
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ewoaf
City-dweller
Posts: 203
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Post by ewoaf on Feb 25, 2020 8:00:48 GMT -7
They're vastly different. The first pic are way newer, possibly even 20thc. 18th c mocs are pretty consistent across the board with slight variations from south and North.
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Post by armando on Feb 25, 2020 8:47:11 GMT -7
Good question. I wondered if the "moccasin kit" sold at Townsend's creates a historically accurate pattern.
Also wondered how much (if any) beading would be accurate from the 1750-1770's.
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Post by lenapej on Feb 25, 2020 8:48:00 GMT -7
They're vastly different. The first pic are way newer, possibly even 20thc. 18th c mocs are pretty consistent across the board with slight variations from south and North. Thanks for the reply, so you are saying that the second pic would be a better representation of my question above? up to this point I have constructed my moccasins very much like the first pic, but am not sure what my next pair should be, in order to be more pc/hc .
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Post by lenapej on Feb 25, 2020 9:12:20 GMT -7
Good question. I wondered if the "moccasin kit" sold at Townsend's creates a historically accurate pattern. Also wondered how much (if any) beading would be accurate from the 1750-1770's. In reference to the beading and quillwork, It is my opinion, based on what I have read and common sense, that the ornamented mocs would have been reserved for social and ceremonial occasions, and plain mocs would have been used for hunting, war and everyday use, as they tend to wear out rather quickly, I have read of 18th century Native bundles/packs being found containing as many as 12 or 13 pair of mocs, it would have been expensive and time consuming to bead/quill that many pair. I would appreciate the input of others more learned than I on this subject.
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Post by nwterritorywoodsman on Feb 25, 2020 9:13:07 GMT -7
Hopefully Hawkeyes will see your thread, I would bet that he could answer your question. NWT Woodsman
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Post by hawkeyes on Feb 25, 2020 9:31:57 GMT -7
My ancestors are from the U.P. in Michigan, they wore something along the lines of a center seam setup. That said for Ohio country (I live here) absolutely pucker toe, that's all I wear. I have worn out and made more mocs than I have toes and fingers. The best hide still for pucker toes is deer IMO. I've tried thicker elk but it's very hard to get a good pucker from the thicker hide. Mocs should be considered a consumable and they will wear fast. I always carry two pairs, one I'm wearing plus a second fresh pair in my kit. They can be mended to a point, but expect to wear a pair out quickly and retire them to flint leathers. I've tried many methods to prolong the life of the soles and gave up. Roll naturally and you'll bang out a pair in minutes once you get used to making them. Certainly if you can tan your own hides it makes it much easier. Like leggings they are very simple to make correctly and I would advise against a "kit". Making mocs is a task you must commit to memory if you plan on actually hitting the forest. For fashionable purposes/ weekender events guess a pair may last longer but that's not my gig. Steve Davis from Still Water Woodcraft has a really good video on the construction, much easier to understand than me rambling. I spent the funds on a nice pair of colonial shoes since I was wearing mocs out so much. Hate them... that said once you get used to wearing them, pure comfort! Also if you learn to walk quietly in the forest you can hear a squirrel fart from a mile away. Won't trade my mocs for anything. Also in reference to beading and quilling absolutely. Beading became more prominent than quilling once Native peoples were able to acquire them from a sustainable source. My grandmother was able to do some beautiful traditional Anishinaabe beadwork and basket weaving. I however don't spend the time doing so. The forest isn't kind on intricate beadwork and quilling. I spent a great deal of time running lines of beading on a pair and unfortunately continued to rip them. Again if you don't plan to actually hit the forest you'd likely be fine for intricate work lasting. Also, what I have came across is moc flaps would be very ornate, which once a pair was worn you simply snipped the stitching and would sew them to the newly constructed pair.
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ewoaf
City-dweller
Posts: 203
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Post by ewoaf on Feb 25, 2020 10:56:50 GMT -7
Hawkeye has nice mocs, though I prefer one piece construction, but that's how the toes should look. If you're gonna get fancy and bead, at least leave off the broadcloth, and stick to ribbon. Size 8-10 Venetian whites are best. My late wife was a midéikwe from Peshawbestown by the by.
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Post by hawkeyes on Feb 25, 2020 11:46:21 GMT -7
Also, very important to note. Your feet WILL get wet. That is life with most mocs. There are other more detailed shoe packs and such that help and that is something you could do.
Mocs should also fit tightly, very tight. Almost hard to get on at first but once you wear them around they conform and break in nicely. I don't ware slippers around the house but mocs lined with wool broadcloth, very cozy. Hard to beat the simple pucker toe.
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Post by lenapej on Feb 25, 2020 12:39:16 GMT -7
Hawkeyes, thanks for the reply, all I have worn are moccasins because I can't afford shoes, but someday I want to get a pair, here are a current pair of mocs that are ready for retirement, I usually add a sole, and this pair have a wool insert, I am surprised how long they have lasted thru all the hunts and trekks. Look forward to trying the pucker toe, thanks for the tips.
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Post by spence on Feb 25, 2020 12:51:38 GMT -7
I assume all the attention paid to correct construction is by those doing a Native American impression? I have difficulty believing whites wearing moccasins for reasons of practicality in the day would be at all concerned with ethnic correctness.
Spence
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Post by nwterritorywoodsman on Feb 25, 2020 13:24:45 GMT -7
Cool moccs Lenapej, are those the same ones you had on your winter clothing vid three years back? If so, they lasted awhile for sure. NWT Woodsman
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Post by Black Hand on Feb 25, 2020 13:37:25 GMT -7
I assume all the attention paid to correct construction is by those doing a Native American impression? I have difficulty believing whites wearing moccasins for reasons of practicality in the day would be at all concerned with ethnic correctness. Spence I'd suspect that moccasins worn by whites were acquired from a local tribe or were approximations cobbled together as needed. I also don't see moccasins being taken as battle spoils by whites (usually), which might be a consideration with natives.
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Post by lenapej on Feb 25, 2020 13:51:39 GMT -7
Cool moccs Lenapej, are those the same ones you had on your winter clothing vid three years back? If so, they lasted awhile for sure. NWT Woodsman I believe they are!, they have lasted for awhile, lol
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Post by lenapej on Feb 25, 2020 14:25:28 GMT -7
I assume all the attention paid to correct construction is by those doing a Native American impression? I have difficulty believing whites wearing moccasins for reasons of practicality in the day would be at all concerned with ethnic correctness. Spence First off, let me say sir that I have enjoyed reading your Blackpowder Notebook very much! I recognize you from your photos. I am not doing a Native impression as of now, but my interest in the 18th century started by my interest in the Lenni Lenape Indians, one of whom married my direct ancestor in the 18th century, and would like to portray an individual that may have had dealings with them, ( kinda like christian Frederick Post, who spent time, and had friendships among them) and I just kinda took it for granted that they would have bought and/or made them according to the influence of those people that they were around. But I see your point (and agree) that most Whites would not have cared about ethnic correctness.
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