Keith
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Post by Keith on Mar 3, 2020 14:52:07 GMT -7
For example, I didn't realize the term "Best Quality French Flints" didn't just mean they came from France, but more importantly it meant the SHAPE of the flints.
Gus
.This quote from Gus prompted this query. I have seen many flints that have a rounded edge instead of the typical straight edge. I did not pay much attention to this at first, but then I purchased an antique flintlock pistol, & the flint was one of these rounded edged flints & it was positioned to be the striking edge. So I dry fired this pistol, & the shower of sparks was extremely good. I have read that the rounded edge is the heel of such a flint, so I assume it is not supposed to be the striking edge.     Your thoughts please. Obviously it works extremely well using the heel as the striking edge, but was this ever a consideration in the 18th century when the flint was made? Or, was the straight edge only to be used as the striking edge but a person could have tried reversing the flint to get better sparks? Keith.
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Post by hawkeyes on Mar 4, 2020 6:09:00 GMT -7
This is interesting. One would think less contact on the hammer would yield the opposite.
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coot
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Post by coot on Mar 4, 2020 9:06:12 GMT -7
There are several excellent informative chapters on gun flints in T. M. Hamilton's book "Colonial Frontier Guns" (1980 & 1987). Basically, what the English produced are termed gun "spalls" and are more primitive in form and more wasteful of the flint material (nodules) than the French system of production
which produced what we today consider a basic gun flint. The French developed their system partially out of necessity as the flint nodules mined in France were a fraction of the size of the plentiful and large nodules mined in England. The French kept their method a state secret (no mention in Diderot for example) until about 1780 when supposedly the English learned the method from French prisoners of war. The production rate for the French style gun flints, made in England in the19th century was reported as that a skilled worker could produce 7000 flakes a day from large quality nodules and that working from these flakes, a good workman could produce 8 finished gunflints a minute!
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Post by artificer on Mar 4, 2020 20:31:24 GMT -7
First of all, sincere Kudo's to Coot for accurately describing the information from Hamilton's Colonial Frontier Guns. Just to make sure everyone is on the right page, The "Best French Flints" or what the French called "Extra Fine Flints' prior to the AWI were shaped like what we know as "The Best English Flints" today. They had more or less parallel tops and bottoms, a long striking face (towards the Hammer or Steel in the period and what is commonly called the Frizzen today) and a shorter angle rear face, as shown in the link below: www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/141/1What may be interesting or amusing is that Bailey and others have documented British Ordnance bought the "Secretly Shaped French Flints" in very large quantities from French and/or Dutch Merchants between the many Wars between Britain and France and right up to the beginning of the AWI. There has been more information that has come out since Hamilton's book was published, though. It seems instead of French Prisoner/s of War having been entreated/cajoled into showing the English how to make the flints (though that was the best information available when Hamilton published his book) Bailey found evidence that British Flint Makers bribed French Gunflint manufacturers to teach the English how to make these flints not long before the AWI. British Ordnance purchased 200,000 of the then "New" shaped flints in 1775 from English Flint knappers, that were the same shape as the French had been making for decades by that time. British Ordnance purchased 500,000 the next year and into the millions each year thereafter during the AWI. We discussed this in depth on the other forum two to three years ago, so I don't have the pages from Bailey's work right at hand or recorded. I'm too tired tonight to look them up, but will try to do so later. Gus |
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Post by artificer on Mar 4, 2020 21:09:45 GMT -7
Your thoughts please. Obviously it works extremely well using the heel as the striking edge, but was this ever a consideration in the 18th century when the flint was made? Or, was the straight edge only to be used as the striking edge but a person could have tried reversing the flint to get better sparks?
Keith.
Hi Keith,
On the other forum in the last few months to a year, Dave Person described and showed good sparking from a variety of quartz, etc. that we would not think to use as a gun flint as it was no where near properly shaped. However, Dave highly tuned that lock beyond the skill of many folks. So it is a possibility back in the day they did try to turn the Wedge Shaped flints around to use the straighter edge IF they had a fairly high quality lock.
More info I should have mentioned on the British change from Wedge or Gunspall flints to "Extra Fine" French Flints and/or that style made in Britain. Bailey mentions complaints that came from British Generals during the AWI using the older style flints being such low quality they were barely useable. However, part of the problem besides the shape of the English Wedge/Gunspall flints was where they got the flint from in England. The quality of flint from France was much better than the quality of flints mined in Kent. However, along with the better shaped "French/French Style" flints, they found better quality flint in Brandon and began using that flint around the time of the changeover from Wedge/Gunspall flints to French Style Flints.
Gus.
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Keith
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Bushfire close but safe now. Getting some good rain.
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Post by Keith on Mar 4, 2020 21:33:37 GMT -7
This is interesting. One would think less contact on the hammer would yield the opposite. Not necessarily when you think that the same amount of pressure or striking force is concentrated onto a smaller area of the flint & the hammer face. Keith. |
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Keith
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Bushfire close but safe now. Getting some good rain.
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Post by Keith on Mar 4, 2020 21:43:01 GMT -7
Excellent information from everyone, many thanks, very interesting.
Keith.
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Post by spence on Mar 4, 2020 21:51:31 GMT -7
Does anyone have a picture of the French flint's shape"
Spence
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Keith
City-dweller
Bushfire close but safe now. Getting some good rain.
Posts: 990
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Post by Keith on Mar 4, 2020 22:45:58 GMT -7
These French gunflints were found in Sydney, & the ones with the rounded heel are the same as the one in my pistol, which I also believe to be French. Keith.  |
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Post by artificer on Mar 4, 2020 23:41:00 GMT -7
Does anyone have a picture of the French flint's shape" Spence Spence, I'm sorry, but I never know when I grab a pic off the web, whether it will come on the forum as a pic or just a link. In the following, the left flint is a gunspall/wedge, the center flint is a French "Fine" Grade Flint (the top is pointed rather than fairly flat) and the right flint (no matter if it came from England or France) is the French "Extra Fine" shaped flint. IOW, the best flint is sometimes called a platform flint with more or less parallel top and bottom sides, a long striking surface on the front and a shorter angled rear surface. So here is the pic or link: 4.bp.blogspot.com/-llQO6r9Xi-8/UzXR1CnUEfI/AAAAAAAABJU/BiMtnNYoW_0/s1600/gunflint+images+-+spall+&+prism.jpgGus |
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Post by spence on Mar 5, 2020 7:45:26 GMT -7
I have a French gunflint which is supposed to be an original. It's hard to show all the configuration, and I never thought it would be very efficient. The heel is relatively very thick, and I doubt it would work well if that were the striking surface. What I assume is the striking surface is the sharp point upper left in this view. Looked at from above it is straight.  If I turn it just a bit you can see that the left, striking edge is curved up and down.  When looked at from the bottom the striking edge is straight, but notice the ends aren't touching the table because of that up-down curve.  I can imagine it would work in a large, very strong musket lock. Spence |
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