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Post by Black Hand on Jun 9, 2020 18:55:29 GMT -7
Sicilianhunter, Another question if you are going to use the boxes outside. Do you plan on putting carry handles on them? If so, be careful not to have the screws or bolts go in the same "plane" or horizontal alignment, as it will crack the wood if the box is to hold something moderately or really heavy. They knew this in the period and designed the handles to take this into account. Gus Artificer, Excellent tip! Hadn’t thought of that, so does that mean you would cock the angle of the handle in order to offset whatever you secure it with? My handles are installed in a straight line - never had a crack or failure.
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Post by artificer on Jun 10, 2020 4:30:37 GMT -7
Sicilianhunter, Another question if you are going to use the boxes outside. Do you plan on putting carry handles on them? If so, be careful not to have the screws or bolts go in the same "plane" or horizontal alignment, as it will crack the wood if the box is to hold something moderately or really heavy. They knew this in the period and designed the handles to take this into account. Gus Artificer, Excellent tip! Hadn’t thought of that, so does that mean you would cock the angle of the handle in order to offset whatever you secure it with? Not necessarily, but yes, they did it that way sometimes on original chests.
Small document chests to beginning of medium size chests that were only going to store rather light loads, often had the nails or screws in the same plane. These chests were for storing and not for traveling, so there was not the same kind of stress that was put on the side boards by the handles..
You see, period chests were normally of the "six board" construction. That meant the wood grain went around the sides and front and back boards. IOW, the grain did not run up and down on the sides or front and back boards. They knew that wood usually cracks with the grain, not perpendicular to it. So they used ever more ingenious ways to mount the handles, depending on the size of the box and how much weight it would carry. Really heavy boxes/chests usually had a shaped wood block that held a rope handle or "becket." That shaped wood block ran perpendicular to the grain of the side boards and thus the nails or screws through them, were not in the same plane.
Do you have handle hardware that matches the handles on the Spanish Chest you are copying? I mention this because it looks like on the original you are copying, the handles were not attached with screws through a plate on the outside.. Rather they made a pair of nails with loops in the ends, so pins of the handles would go in the loops. Inside the original chest, I would bet a dollar to a doughnut that the nails were "clinched" as they called it or bent into a U shape and driven into the boards perpendicular to the wood grain.
Gus
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Post by brokennock on Jun 10, 2020 5:04:28 GMT -7
I'm gathering, if I'm picturing this right, that it wasn't that the handles were cockeyed, but, that the screws or nails did not line up 90 degrees from eachother. In other words, if the handles were mounted to a plate, the screws in the top corners would not line up vertically with the screws in the bottom corners. Correct?
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Post by artificer on Jun 10, 2020 10:20:31 GMT -7
I'm gathering, if I'm picturing this right, that it wasn't that the handles were cockeyed, but, that the screws or nails did not line up 90 degrees from eachother. In other words, if the handles were mounted to a plate, the screws in the top corners would not line up vertically with the screws in the bottom corners. Correct? Hi Nock,
Actually, some times they did put the handles on a bit cockeyed, but that was usually when they were worried about how the grain ran through the side boards. IOW, they were adapting the handles so it was less likely they would crack/split the wood. If they had to do it on one side board though, they usually did the same thing on the other side board, even if the grain in the other side board didn't really need it. It was done in an esthetic sense of symmetry to the eye.
I've seen original handle plates with four holes for nails or screws where the two holes on the top and the two holes on the bottom did not line up horizontally or vertically. The off set in alignment was deliberate and not just from them being hand made. The idea was the "load stress" of the handle on the wood was spread out, so less likely to crack the wood.
I found a side view of the chest Sicilianhunter is copying and linked below. I can't tell if each side of the handle is held by a single Iron Nail formed into a loop or if each side is held by what we would call a cotter key and they called one half of a snipe hinge. i.pinimg.com/originals/71/33/94/7133944fe18a71b5509d1a31df90cb82.jpg
If each side is a single Iron Nail with a loop, what they commonly did was bend each end that went through the side board into a "U" or hook shape and then hammer it down in opposite directions, say one upwards and one downwards. This again to spread the "work load" or "load stress" on the wood. BTW, below is a link that shows the end of a nail being bent and ready to clinch or clench it (both spellings were used) by hammering the hooked end down into the wood. www.theenglishwoodworker.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/clenching-post.jpg
I was sure most folks would not know what I was referring to when I wrote above about what we would call a cotter key and they called half a snipe hinge, to hold on a handle on each side. I was lucky to find a repro of just such a handle and it is linked below. They made a point to clinch the four ends of the half snipe hinges inside the side boards in an off set manner as well, again so as to spread the "load stress" on the side boards.. i.etsystatic.com/19004331/r/il/40929c/1700021940/il_fullxfull.1700021940_hh7q.jpg
OK, more coming, but I'm going to stop here so as not to lose this information and have to start over.
Gus
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Post by artificer on Jun 10, 2020 10:46:40 GMT -7
OK, I was very happy to find a few more links that show load stress cracks in original boxes/chests, etc.
The link below is from a chest identified as a "16th through 18th century Chinese" Chest. I love these links as they show typical cracking all over the chest that happened during the "working life" of period chests. In this case, the wood didn't crack between the holes for the nails/half snipe hinges, but cracked close to it. Also, those short vertical strips of Iron are not decorative, they actually are staples meant to hold the cracked side board together.
a.1stdibscdn.com/archivesE/upload/f_8688/f_2911463/DANM6378_l.jpg
However, as good as the above picture is, this one REALLY takes the cake. Grin. This is the front picture of the same chest shown above. Notice how there are added Iron Staples, Plates and various support hardware added to keep other cracks in the chest together. I've looked at a whole bunch of original 18th century boxes, chests, trunks, etc. over the last 45 plus years since I became interested in them and have seen most all these types of added Iron supports, but never so many in a single chest. LOL!
a.1stdibscdn.com/archivesE/upload/8688/39_15/2911463/2911463_l.jpeg
More coming, but again will close before I lose this.
Gus
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Post by artificer on Jun 10, 2020 11:10:51 GMT -7
Sorry this one is out of order with the "flow" I've been trying to accomplish, but I found it and don't want to lose it again.
This one is an 18th century blanket chest and the wood of the side boards is oriented differently than most boxes or chests, as I mentioned before. The grain of the wood is running up and down on the side boards as they used the extra length to form feet on the bottom of each side. Notice the cracks running up and down or along the length of the grain? Many if not most blanket chests did not have handles on them because they were not commonly used as transport containers. Still, the few times they actually did put handles on some I've seen, the nails or half snipe hinges actually helped keep cracked boards together. (Sorry I couldn't find an illustration of that.)
Oh, please also notice the crack running close to the center of the top board. This was also typical during the "using life" of chests when a single board was used as a lid. The lid boards first cupped or bowed and then cracked. This was also why at the end of the 18th century they began using "panel tops" for chests and boxes. The panel floated in a frame in the lid and thus was not as prone to cracking.
img0.etsystatic.com/018/0/6475487/il_fullxfull.521045954_ee68.jpg
Gus
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Post by Sicilianhunter on Jun 10, 2020 11:45:17 GMT -7
Gus The cotter key/snipe hinge looks like what was on the specimen in question to me. Thanks for identifying it. My question is: what does the look like on the inside of the chest? Are the straight ends just folded over on themselves or turned on the ends and cut to form a nail end to be driven back into the wood on the inside of the chest?
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Post by artificer on Jun 10, 2020 12:14:00 GMT -7
Gus The cotter key/snipe hinge looks like what was on the specimen in question to me. Thanks for identifying it. My question is: what does the look like on the inside of the chest? Are the straight ends just folded over on themselves or turned on the ends and cut to form a nail end to be driven back into the wood on the inside of the chest? When the ends of the half snipe hinge went through a hole in the sideboard, they were bent into a "U" or hook shape. Then "clinched" or hammered into the wood on the interior of the board, similar to the photo I posted above. This was much stronger than modern nails which normally just hold by friction in the wood. Clinched nails have the added mechanical advantage of being bent and driven back into the wood.
The problem is it is very difficult to see the clinched ends of the nails or half snipe hinges in photos of original chests, even when they show the inside area of a side board in the photo. The clinched ends blend so well with the wood around them, they are difficult to almost impossible to see in a photo.
More coming, just had to find some things again.
Gus
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Post by artificer on Jun 10, 2020 12:30:13 GMT -7
Spanish chests and chests made in some other Mediterranean countries during the period often had more iron banding than is typical on English or American made chests. I'm not entirely sure why they did, but I suspect it was due to the warmer climate.
Having the grip either attached to or supported by a horizontal Iron Band was not uncommon on Spanish Chests. Some took it one step further and added a vertical Iron Strip or Band. The below link shows both on this chest and is sort of the "ne plus ultra" of period handles. However, even with all that going for this chest, you can see horizontal cracks above and below the horizontal band and another close to the bottom. This photo enlarges by clicking on it in my link and I hope it does as well when posted here.
www.loveantiques.com/images/d000672/items/138413/dsc_0499.jpg
I was very happy to find the link for this chest and got bit excited to see they had two pictures showing the inside side boards. However, I don't know if it is my old eyes or the shadows, but I can't see the clinched ends of the nails. Maybe you can?
www.sellingantiques.co.uk/597629/18th-century-oak-seamans-chesttreasure-chest/#
OK, got one more post coming, but will close so I don't lose this.
Gus
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Post by artificer on Jun 10, 2020 13:10:56 GMT -7
OK, I'm not trying to single out anyone for criticism, but I often get questions or statements that modern reproduction chests don't show the typical cracks or other things that original boxes or chests do. I don't doubt anyone who says these things, but repro chests are not subjected to the same environment or use that original boxes or chests had to endure much more often.
Most of our repro chests/boxes are stored most of the time in the climate and controlled environment of our modern temperature and humidity controlled homes. How many folks even take them to encampments more than 4 to six days a month? Even when they are stored in an attached garage, they are usually in a better environment than when the originals were in a cabin or even a period wood frame house. Further, we transport the boxes and chests normally in protected places in our vehicles and they are not subjected to the possible damage that wood wagons did to them over poor to downright bad roads or no roads at all.
I like to compare period use to modern use by this example. Period Military Shoes lasted no more than a month on campaign and sometimes less. They lasted longer in garrison, because there wasn't as much wear and tear or effects of the elements on them. Still period shoes probably only lasted 6 months to a year at the very most in garrison, by period documentation. When we have repro's made the same way, they last much longer because we don't wear them everyday and often don't wear them as strenuously as we do constantly with work shoes or boots. With my UnCivil War period bootee's, that though the style is different were made pretty much the same as 18th century shoes: I went through mud, snow, rain and even forded streams that came as high as my chest. We spent a lot of time in War Games in the woods and fields as well. Still those shoes lasted for almost four years before I wore a pair out.
So it is unlikely we will see wear and tear on our repro items that they saw in everyday life. Still, if we MAKE the repro's like they did, they will last longer for doing it, in many cases.
Gus
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Post by Sicilianhunter on Jun 10, 2020 15:28:43 GMT -7
Gus, Many thanks for all of the excellent info and detailed links!!! I can see in the photos of the chest that the straight ends are turned up vertically before turned back into the wood of the interior
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Post by artificer on Jun 10, 2020 16:55:26 GMT -7
Gus, Many thanks for all of the excellent info and detailed links!!! I can see in the photos of the chest that the straight ends are turned up vertically before turned back into the wood of the interior Since the ends of the half snipe hinges are clinched or bent across the grain that way, even that helps keep cracking down a bit more.
You are most welcome.
Gus
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Post by artificer on Jun 12, 2020 1:00:22 GMT -7
Gus, Many thanks for all of the excellent info and detailed links!!! I can see in the photos of the chest that the straight ends are turned up vertically before turned back into the wood of the interior Something else for you to consider and of course do what you would like. If those chests are going to be for prizes, I would suggest you not use a wax finish on them of any kind. Some folks may prefer to stain the chests or put some other kind of finish on them, after they receive them, but with a wax finish, they would have to completely strip all finish off the chests. Coot was right to advise against using Spar Varnish, especially if the person might want to stain the chest. I happen to know from personal experience that if you use Spar Varnish as a sealer coat/s and sand the surface smooth for staining/dyeing, The Spar Varnish in the pores stands out like a sore thumb after staining/dyeing. Yes, I did that one time many years ago with a gun stock. It was not pretty. I did a good bit of trial and error and never used Spar Varnish on a Gun stock or furniture again. OK, we have already established that Oil Varnish indeed was a period finish. Since you want to leave the wood a natural color, why not use Clear Watco Danish Oil? There is nothing "Danish" about this finish - that was just advertising hype when it came out and they never changed the name. It is an Oil Varnish and will protect the wood pretty well. THEN if the prize recipients want to stain/dye the chest, they can sand the surface smooth and do it. The Danish Oil will ensure any stain or dye won't wind up blotchy, because it will act as a sealer. BTW, this was a WELL KNOWN trick 18th century furniture makers used when the wood they had for project didn't all match in natural color and before the stained the different boards to match. I have used this technique on many, many gun stocks to ensure an even dye/stain, so I know it will work. Danish Oil also dries fast, so you can put two or three coats on pretty fast. Hard to beat the price as well. www.homedepot.com/p/Watco-1-pt-Natural-Danish-Oil-265503/203164644Gus
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Post by Sicilianhunter on Jun 12, 2020 4:15:16 GMT -7
Gus, Thanks! Since there will be few of them I am considering a different finish on each and Danish oil is definitely one of the choices
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