|
|
Gillett?
Sept 17, 2020 14:00:09 GMT -7
via mobile
Post by brokennock on Sept 17, 2020 14:00:09 GMT -7
Not sure I'm spelling that correctly. Essentially a wool sleeveless undergarment as I understand it. My question is, are these always knit or were they made from wool cloth as well?
If cloth, can a piece of cloth be cut to double the correct length and folded over to form the shoulders, a hole cut in the fold for the head to go through, then sewn up the sides? Leaving just enough room at the top of each side for the arms to get through.
I'm thinking this should fit fairly snug in order to get other clothing over it and so as not to inhibit arm movement.
|
|
|
|
Post by paranger on Sept 17, 2020 14:07:57 GMT -7
Not sure what you are after, Nock. "Gilet" is simply French for vest or waistcoat. In the 18th c. military context, an under waistcoat or doublet. Check this Ft. Ti link for a good pic. Note the one in the pic is worn under a sleeved waistcoat and of double breasted wool. www.fortticonderoga.org/news/maurice-de-saxe-and-canadian-clothing/ |
|
|
|
Gillett?
Sept 17, 2020 16:02:52 GMT -7
via mobile
Post by brokennock on Sept 17, 2020 16:02:52 GMT -7
Thanks paranger. I'm not sure exactly either. Going off memory of past topics/conversations. Seem to recall a knit wool vest called a gilet worn under the shirt being mentioned in some topics elsewhere regarding staying warm in period dress and period versions of our modern thermal underwear. I, of course, could be misremembering.
|
|
|
|
Gillett?
Sept 17, 2020 16:17:34 GMT -7
via mobile
Post by paranger on Sept 17, 2020 16:17:34 GMT -7
Gotcha. My understanding, as the name suggests, is that this is an essentially French piece of kit. Not that someone won't come up with an example somewhere of an Anglo usage, but I don't think it would be common.
Are you looking to do a French impression? If not, might I suggest adding one or more wool overshirts, which can be worn over a waistcoat and under a coat, blanket coat, match coat, etc.? Wearing of multiple shirts is well documented. It's easy enough to roll up in your pack or blanket when not needed.
|
|
|
|
Post by spence on Sept 17, 2020 16:28:47 GMT -7
In 1769, Francois-Antoine de Garsault wrote, in The Art of the Tailor, "The camisole is, in a word, an undervest that one wears directly on the skin; it is made with or without sleeves; this last one is called a gilet...The camisole, otherwise gilet, is worn next to the skin or over the shirt; when against the skin, it is made only in flannel; if it is put over the shirt, it is made in any light and warm fabric. It can be made with or without sleeves, & is cut much like a waistcoat with no skirts or tabs; the back is almost straight; it is not lined,...only small flat buttons are used on it."
The cutting diagram, which is shown without sleeves, suggests two
pieces in the back and two in the front--the neckline is high and would
button up right to the collarbone for warmth.
Virginia planter Landon Carter wrote in his diary April 30, 1771, "I removed my flannel waistcoat from beneath my shirt to wearing it above." He notes in 1774 that since the waistcoat next to the skin was proving itchy, he wore a "Prudance, a breastplate of flannel".
Spence
|
|
|
|
Post by paranger on Sept 17, 2020 16:55:41 GMT -7
In 1769, Francois-Antoine de Garsault wrote, in The Art of the Tailor, "The camisole is, in a word, an undervest that one wears directly on the skin; it is made with or without sleeves; this last one is called a gilet...The camisole, otherwise gilet, is worn next to the skin or over the shirt; when against the skin, it is made only in flannel; if it is put over the shirt, it is made in any light and warm fabric. It can be made with or without sleeves, & is cut much like a waistcoat with no skirts or tabs; the back is almost straight; it is not lined,...only small flat buttons are used on it." The cutting diagram, which is shown without sleeves, suggests two pieces in the back and two in the front--the neckline is high and would button up right to the collarbone for warmth. Virginia planter Landon Carter wrote in his diary April 30, 1771, "I removed my flannel waistcoat from beneath my shirt to wearing it above." He notes in 1774 that since the waistcoat next to the skin was proving itchy, he wore a "Prudance, a breastplate of flannel". Spence And there it is.... Spence, you seldom disappoint.  |
|
Keith
City-dweller
Bushfire close but safe now. Getting some good rain.
Posts: 990 
|
Post by Keith on Sept 17, 2020 17:21:13 GMT -7
woodsrunnersdiary.blogspot.com/2009/03/18th-century-under-weskitunder.htmlwoodsrunnersdiary.blogspot.com/2009/05/117th-18th-century-underclothing-for.htmlCamisoles or undervests are mentioned even less frequently, and it is not certain that they were always worn as undergarments. We have seen above that it was customary to wear a shirt directly against the skin, and it is known that the term "camisole" also can refer to a type of waistcoat (gilet). When made of flannel, as is the case with two camisoles in Duquesnel's inventory, [54] they were worn under a shirt. Besides two other camisoles, made of dimity (basin) listed in the same inventory, we do not know what other fabrics were used for camisoles. Waistcoat: 1. Short sleeveless garment worn under a vest, jaquette ... etc. A sort of camisole of wool or cotton, which was worn next to the skin or over a shirt. The gilet is a vest without basques, and originally without pockets. (Larousse, XX siècle, "gilet"). Keith.
|
|
|
|
Gillett?
Sept 18, 2020 4:19:24 GMT -7
via mobile
Post by brokennock on Sept 18, 2020 4:19:24 GMT -7
In 1769, Francois-Antoine de Garsault wrote, in The Art of the Tailor, "The camisole is, in a word, an undervest that one wears directly on the skin; it is made with or without sleeves; this last one is called a gilet...The camisole, otherwise gilet, is worn next to the skin or over the shirt; when against the skin, it is made only in flannel; if it is put over the shirt, it is made in any light and warm fabric. It can be made with or without sleeves, & is cut much like a waistcoat with no skirts or tabs; the back is almost straight; it is not lined,...only small flat buttons are used on it." The cutting diagram, which is shown without sleeves, suggests two pieces in the back and two in the front--the neckline is high and would button up right to the collarbone for warmth. Virginia planter Landon Carter wrote in his diary April 30, 1771, "I removed my flannel waistcoat from beneath my shirt to wearing it above." He notes in 1774 that since the waistcoat next to the skin was proving itchy, he wore a "Prudance, a breastplate of flannel". Spence Thanks you. I knew you and Keith would come through. When they say it was made of "flannel," in the context of the time period would this have still been a wool product or more like our cotton flannel? |
|
ewoaf
City-dweller
Posts: 203
|
Post by ewoaf on Sept 18, 2020 6:07:32 GMT -7
Wool flannel. We use cotton for flannel today because wool is too expensive. Remember that cotton was then an import thus relatively expensive whereas wool and linen were domestic products.
|
|
|
|
Post by spence on Sept 18, 2020 8:30:53 GMT -7
Here's some info I've collected on flannel.
Flannel
Although today flannel is associated with an all cotton fabric, in the 18th
century flannel was usually a woolen textile. While most varieties at that
time were all wool, some also incorporated a linen or cotton warp (Kerridge
1985:108). Flannel was closely related to baize, but had a smooth surface
with a "tight, hardspun warp and a loosely spun weft of carding wool" in a
plain or two-and-two twill (Kerridge 1985:108).
In 1761 Rolt defined flannel as a "kind of slight, loose, woolen stuff, not
quilted, but very warm: composed of a woof and warp; being wove on a loom, with two treddles, after the manner of bays... The principle use of flannel is for placing it between two stuffs, instead of flocks, or cotton, to make cloathing the warmer; but some use it for waistcoats, drawers, shirts, and shifts, and women most commonly for under-petticoats".
Such uses are born out by some contemporary mentions of the fabric. John
Harrower wore flannel for a pair of drawers, brought with him to Virginia in
1774 (Harrower 1963:45). Likewise, Landon Carter mentions flannel in 1774
when he states he "used to wear my flannel Waistcoat next [to] my skin to
accomodate the very cold weather of winter. This however produce[d] Vast
itching..." (Carter 1965:902). For this reason flannel was woven and finished
to "offer the least possible irritation to the skin" (Kerridge 1985:108).
Although most flannels were woven to be a soft textile, coarse flannels were
also produced. These frequently went by the name of "Welsh flannel" and were classed with friezes (Kerridge 1985:109-110). Landon Carter ordered "10 yards Welch flannel" in 1763, but stated no specific use for which he intended it (Carter 1965:245). Mrs. Catherine Rathell of Williamsburg, did specify what she intended to do with flannel she ordered in 1771. She requested of John Norton, in London, "White flannel, the thickest & Best that Can be got for 13 or 14d p yd. N.B. it Must be very White as its for Gentlemens Jackets" (Letter dated December 29, 1771 in Mason 1937:212). Another order for flannel, this time striped, came from the Earl of Dunmore at the capitol in Williamsburg. He requested, in 1773, "30 Yds. Strip'd flannel for Grooms Waistcoats". (Mason 1937:330).
Flannel appears as a lining for a bearskin jacket in the _Virginia Gazette_,
as well as for a waistcoat and a pea jacket. Both the waistcoat and jacket
were of a striped flannel, but the color schemes are not offered. In general,
flannels could run the usual range of colors for other cloths, as well as
stripes and even tartans, but often were sent out from the weaver white to be piece dyed.
[the ads referred to in the _Virginia Gazette_ are only for indentured
servants between 1774 and 1778]
References cited:
Carter, Landon,
1965 The Diary of Colonel Landon Carter of Sabine HAll, 1752-1778.
Edited by Jack P. Greene. University Press of Virginia,
Charlottesville.
Harrower, John
1963 The Journal of John Harrower: An Indentured Servant in the Colony
of Virginia, 1773-1776, edited by Edward M. Riley. Holt, Rinehart
and Winston, New York.
Kerridge, Eric
1985 Textile Manufactures in Early Modern England. Manchester University
Press, United Kingdom.
Mason, Frances Norton, (editor)
1937 John Norton & Sons, Merchants of London and Virginia: Being the
Papers from their Counting House for the Years 1750 to 1795. Dietz
Press, Richmond, Virginia.
Rolt, Richard
1761 A New Dictionary of Trade and Commerce. London.
Spence
|
|
|
|
Gillett?
Sept 18, 2020 14:34:57 GMT -7
via mobile
Post by brokennock on Sept 18, 2020 14:34:57 GMT -7
Spence, is there anything you don't have info on? Most excellent, thank you.
|
|
|
|
Gillett?
Sept 18, 2020 14:36:49 GMT -7
via mobile
Post by brokennock on Sept 18, 2020 14:36:49 GMT -7
Wool flannel. We use cotton for flannel today because wool is too expensive. Remember that cotton was then an import thus relatively expensive whereas wool and linen were domestic products. I try not to use cotton anything for outdoor wear. Which of the vendors mentioned in the "wool for leggings," topic would be the "go to" source for a nice soft, thin weight, wool flannel? |
|
coot
City-dweller
Posts: 152
|
Post by coot on Sept 18, 2020 15:00:07 GMT -7
There is a certain "luck of the draw" as to who has what in stock at any given point in time - those that I listed earlier are all good - pick one to start & hope that you get what you want before you run out of suggested vendors.
|
|
|
|
Post by Black Hand on Sept 19, 2020 12:56:25 GMT -7
Wool flannel. We use cotton for flannel today because wool is too expensive. Remember that cotton was then an import thus relatively expensive whereas wool and linen were domestic products. I try not to use cotton anything for outdoor wear. Which of the vendors mentioned in the "wool for leggings," topic would be the "go to" source for a nice soft, thin weight, wool flannel? I'd personally avoid thin wool flannel for hardwearing items such as leggings. |
|
|
|
Gillett?
Sept 20, 2020 1:08:13 GMT -7
via mobile
Post by brokennock on Sept 20, 2020 1:08:13 GMT -7
I try not to use cotton anything for outdoor wear. Which of the vendors mentioned in the "wool for leggings," topic would be the "go to" source for a nice soft, thin weight, wool flannel? I'd personally avoid thin wool flannel for hardwearing items such as leggings. I was going to use it for the gilet. I was only referencing the leggings for the source of the recommended vendors. |
|
