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Post by brokennock on Aug 24, 2021 18:07:32 GMT -7
It seems in my recollection that often on many muzzleloading forums, when the question of putting a "sling"on a rifle comes up, a bunch of people make an argument that mostly/only military muskets had them.
(My apologies about my being particular about nomenclature. My schooling ingrained in me that a strap that is only used to carry a long gun is just that, a strap, a sling is something that can be used for that but is designed to be able to be used to steady ones shooting position,,, and I dint mean that dumb @$$ "hasty sling" method. I will try to just use sling as many know it to be used)
A recent discussion on the evolutionary missing link,,,, I mean,,, the so called "transitional rifle" brought forth several pictures of early rifles bearing sling attachments. The usual metal loop affixed with a pin through the forestock in the area of the middle ramrod pipe, and either a similar loop affixed to the trigger guard or a button like fixture on the bottom of the stock.
Two questions, second one has multiple parts. Can anyone provide more examples from extant original guns and/or period writings mentioning their use on other than military arms? And, has anyone used the button type attachment on rifle or fowling piece very much? If so, how secure is it? Would it securely hold the sling if the gun were carried "African style" with the muzzle down?
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Keith
City-dweller
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Posts: 990
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Post by Keith on Aug 24, 2021 19:50:52 GMT -7
I just use a large loop of leather tie slipped over the barrel & the stock of my fusil. Works great for carrying. I do not use it to steady the gun. Keith.
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Post by Black Hand on Aug 25, 2021 8:17:36 GMT -7
I have one that ties on...
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Post by brokennock on Aug 25, 2021 17:39:29 GMT -7
Anyone have examples of original rifles with sling attachment hardware?
How would the tie in arrangements work with muzzle down carry?
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Post by Black Hand on Aug 27, 2021 6:24:42 GMT -7
I also have a tie-on sling I made for my rifle. Muzzle up or down, the carry is the same. Forward tie point is around the barrel/forestock/ramrod thimble and the rear is to the front of the triggerguard bow. Haven't hade any issues.
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Post by hawkeyes on Aug 27, 2021 8:04:44 GMT -7
I've just never attempted to use one here in the East... Nock you know how dense our foliage is! Certainly I can see it alleviates some burden on longer jonts freeing up the hands. I'd be inclined to see more historical detail on this subject as well.
However, undercutting tenons for a loop and hardware can easily be done for sure for a more permanent application.
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Post by brokennock on Aug 27, 2021 19:48:04 GMT -7
I like the look and placement of the button on the stock. And my Fusil doesn't have a trigger guard designed to be drilled for the cross pin/screw for strap hanger attachment.
Sometimes I'd like to be able to stop and use my hands, map check/slate turkey call/take a picture/light a smoke, and not have to put my gun down or risk leaning it against something
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Post by spence on Aug 27, 2021 20:49:42 GMT -7
I have never found any useful primary documentation about the use of slings by civilians. I have occasionally used a simple leather strap with a sliding loop on each end to carry my plains rifle which weighs almost 10 lb. On a hunting trip to Arizona the routine was to climb about a mile up a steep mountain every morning and spend the day up there glassing for game. Having my hands free to carry the day's supplies, food, water, etc., was required, and the strap worked very well. I simply slipped one loop over the butt stock and snugged it around the wrist, the other over the barrel and snugged it near the ramrod entry thimble. The strap is not adjustable for length. No good photos of the rig, but you can see the ends in these two shots. Spence
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Post by Black Hand on Aug 28, 2021 4:10:40 GMT -7
Rifle sling made from Automotive chamois backed with pillow ticking. The ties are also chamois and long enough to wrap around several times. I have a similar arrangement for my Fowler, except the sling is woven Jute with leather ends/ties.
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Post by artificer on Sept 6, 2021 19:08:21 GMT -7
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Post by brokennock on Sept 6, 2021 19:22:31 GMT -7
Thank you. Most of those appear to be of German or European manufacture or influence, but still great examples. The gun to which you commented on the tang sight appears to have a modern sling stud like for a quick release swivel.
P.s. I really like the early gun you posted elsewhere, I hope you will post it to this forum too....
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Post by artificer on Sept 6, 2021 20:00:16 GMT -7
Thank you. Most of those appear to be of German or European manufacture or influence, but still great examples. The gun to which you commented on the tang sight appears to have a modern sling stud like for a quick release swivel. P.s. I really like the early gun you posted elsewhere, I hope you will post it to this forum too.... Remember, slings were basically German inspired carrying devices and definitely not common here in the Colonies, other than on imported or re-stocked imported rifles, though American gunsmiths could have made them had they been ordered. So if you want to copy what was done in the period, those are still good examples for here in the colonies. There are one or two rifles set up for slings in RCA Volumes I and II, but I don't have a way to take a picture of them. That's not a modern sling stud swivel on the one with the interesting tang sight, it's just the stud with hole is missing the sling loop it once had. I have seen one original sling for the button head stud on a late flintlock period rifle that was converted to percussion, though I never got a pic of it. It had a very nicely sewn thick double layer of leather over the hole for the stud. It also was hand stitched around the slit to clear the diameter of the button and the small hole to clear the minor diameter of the stud. Still, it didn't look like it was stout enough for hunting with an expensive rifle or smoothbore, at least to me. If I wanted to mount a sling onto a rifle in our period, I would much prefer the rear swivel to be with a sling loop. It would also be much easier to make a period correct two piece sling that would go over your shoulder and heavy clothing when hunting. Gus Gus
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RyanAK
City-dweller
Once scalped…
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Post by RyanAK on Apr 29, 2022 13:28:34 GMT -7
I’m new here so hopefully I’ll be forgiven for resurrection of a dead thread… but I may have some things that may or may not be helpful. Nock… what’s your time period, what firelock are you carrying, and how old are you? And you’re in Connecticut. This Pennamite won’t hold that against you. Anyway… off to look in my materials in case you get back to us. R
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Post by brokennock on Apr 29, 2022 17:38:10 GMT -7
I’m new here so hopefully I’ll be forgiven for resurrection of a dead thread… but I may have some things that may or may not be helpful. Nock… what’s your time period, what firelock are you carrying, and how old are you? And you’re in Connecticut. This Pennamite won’t hold that against you. Anyway… off to look in my materials in case you get back to us. R Things are quiet enough here, and with high enough quality in the discourse, that I can forgive old thread resurrection, something I normally get irritated with on "that other forum." Time period I keep broad and vague to suit my moods and the weather for a given outing. Generally between 1750s and 1780ish. A CT Yankee who has been to and from the Wyoming Valley, maybe spent some time living amongst the natives (willingly or not). I've read a captivity story example of this but am spacing out on the man's name at the moment. I still don't have what for my time and place is a truly correct gun, I feel. My smoothrifle is debatable for time period, and most likely wrong for my area. Maybe, given my travels, I've picked it up elsewhere, but seems unlikely. My Centermark Fusil des Chase seems a little more plausible for time and place. Partly due to the things that make it an inexact example of a Fusil des Chase. I figure with it's barrel being slightly shorter than the average FdC and the maple stock, it could be a restock of parts from a captured gun. I've also noticed that often New England style fowming pieces have some shapes and features that seem to be a blend of French and English influences. We also tend to leave out that there seems to have been some bit of black market trade and "smuggling," going on between folks in western Connecticut/western Massachusetts along their borders with New York, up the rivers, with folks in Canada. This could also lead to some French influence in equipment. It would be nice to be able not to have to put my gun down to work a box or slate call this time of year.
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RyanAK
City-dweller
Once scalped…
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Post by RyanAK on Apr 29, 2022 18:32:51 GMT -7
Feels good to be forgiven. Great info. And I have a few thoughts on how you could approach this. Straps are certainly a military accoutrement during our time period, but that doesn’t mean they weren’t occasionally found on civilian guns. I actually believe that straps/slings really only became prevalent on civilian sporting rifles in the 1950’s, and turkey shotguns much more recently. Upland and waterfowl guns almost never are seen with straps, even today. That said, I see surviving examples of civilian smoothbore guns with sling hardware in the record. I’m not sure I’ve seen a colonial rifle or smooth rifle with the hardware, but that doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. Here’s what I’ve observed on the smoothbore guns: Almost all smoothbore civilian guns with sling hardware (front stock and trigger guard swivels. The button seems to have been a rifle thing…) have some connection, directly or indirectly, with the military. They’re either associated with their owner’s militia service or they’re guns that have been converted for military duty c.1775-1780. Many, but not all, have stocks cut back and lugs added for bayonet. Most, but not all, are musket length with 42”-46” barrels, either made that way or cut back. I’d have to pull out the books to confirm, but all have 1760-1780 circa dates. Some are actually dated. Let me know if you want me to look and I’ll happily do it. So civilian guns with strap hardware were around. But more importantly… and this is why I asked your age… someone in their 40s in New England likely had exposure to the military and their drill and equipment. Possibly just militia drill, but maybe you went to Louisbourg in ‘45, or went Rangering during one of the many crises of the period. If you saw the utility of a strap while tramping through New England on snowshoes, that’s an experience and piece of kit you’re likely to carry into your civilian life. For the smooth rifle, I’d tie on a strap. I think your particular Fusil de Chasse is an excellent gun for your time and place, precisely for the reasons you state. That sounds like a fun I’d enjoy, and I think it’s PC for you. This is also one I wouldn’t hesitate putting rings on. If you really want to make it a composite gun, add the front swivel and consider swapping the trigger guard to a 1730 Long Land or a French 1728 guard. Alternately, solder/braze a piece of brass ahead of the tg bow to take a swivel. Cutting the forestock back for a bayonet is optional. Ha. Seriously, I think working the FdC would yield a very unique modern reproduction flintlock perfectly likely for New England in the third quarter of the 18th century. R
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