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Post by paranger on May 7, 2022 7:13:42 GMT -7
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RyanAK
City-dweller
Once scalped…
Posts: 979
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Post by RyanAK on May 7, 2022 14:59:30 GMT -7
My skim milk complexion and ginger beard will prevent me from taking on that persona. Although I have spent time in a breechclout.
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Post by brokennock on May 7, 2022 18:50:34 GMT -7
Through some links provided here that lead to other links and more reading, I've somewhat broadened my outlook on what might be acceptable for your time and place. For your situation I'd also be feeling pretty good about an early style smoothrifle similar to RCA 19, that was linked to previously, which belonged to Chief Paxinosa. And, looking at the ads recently provided by Spence, in another topic, from the Pennsylvania Gazette, I'm starting to wonder if average grade imported fowling pieces and other smoothbores ("straight rifle" being listed among these) weren't more common than previously thought. With "trade guns" being more often used for trade and barter with natives.
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RyanAK
City-dweller
Once scalped…
Posts: 979
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Post by RyanAK on May 7, 2022 20:01:27 GMT -7
Through some links provided here that lead to other links and more reading, I've somewhat broadened my outlook on what might be acceptable for your time and place. For your situation I'd also be feeling pretty good about an early style smoothrifle similar to RCA 19, that was linked to previously, which belonged to Chief Paxinosa. And, looking at the ads recently provided by Spence, in another topic, from the Pennsylvania Gazette, I'm starting to wonder if average grade imported fowling pieces and other smoothbores ("straight rifle" being listed among these) weren't more common than previously thought. With "trade guns" being more often used for trade and barter with natives. Spence is a wellhead of valuable period information, isn’t he? I love what he posts and he’s darn quick on the draw. I now think early rifles are highly appropriate, both of Pennsylvania manufacture and imported German or English rifles. I’m coming to the conclusion that the preponderance of rifles c.1755 were in the hands of the Indians, but ‘many’ whites were also this armed. I also think that with the number of rifled barrels apparently being imported per period advertisements, domestic production was likely significant. I’d say the number is somewhere between “more than a lot of us thought” and “fewer than a lot of reenactors want there to have been.” I have several bookmarked as possible future builds, including a few that don’t quite fit into that “transitional rifle” pattern. I’m thinking there may have been English rifled guns on a Fowler, fusil or musket pattern for the Indian trade, but if any are to be found, I’ve yet to hear of one. I’d love to know more about a “straight rifle”. I’m still murky on how smoothrifles evolved and what the intent was. I have my assumptions, but haven’t found much in period accounts. I do agree that they’re likely appropriate for the Susquehanna frontier, though I’m not sure where they’d rank in occurrence. Did hawkeyes recently build a Kibler Colonial Rifle kit as a smoothbore? I also agree with you and think “average grade” English imported smoothbores were common. This is likely the direction I’ll be going. Here’s one thing I’m starting to feel very strongly about: By the 1750s in Pennsylvania there wasn’t much of a distinction between goods for the ‘Indian Trade’ and goods for the European colonials. There was just ‘Trade’. There were poor Indians and poor whites. There were successful natives and successful Europeans. I feel certain that the poor or thrifty person in need of a gun, whether Indian or white, would have had equal access to ‘budget’ smoothbores at gunmakers, merchants, and frontier traders: used guns; restocked ‘composite’ guns; and ‘trade guns’. Likewise, both the Indian or colonist of more means would have been able to equip themselves of arms of a higher quality at the same outlets… up to and including bespoke rifles such as Paxinosa’s. The Indian nations were completely dependent on European trade goods for survival by this point. Chief among these goods was the gun. The Indian was arguably in greater need of quality arms than the majority of European colonists to maintain their very existence. They were likely the largest consumer group in the market, and as such, the lead market force for imported arms and the lead innovation force for arms being developed and made in the Provence. Geez… that was a ramble! What were we talking about?… Oh yes… I agree with Dave.
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Post by brokennock on May 9, 2022 16:36:21 GMT -7
I believe straight rifles probably are one description covering two items. Both having rifle stocks architecture and furniture, to include rear sights. But, two different bores. Possibly it covers what is also known as a smoothrifle, but, I'm sure it also covers guns with said design that have barrels with what is known as straight rifling. That would be rifling grooves that run straight down the bore instead of a spiral. This is believed to have been done to give fouling a place to go. Straight rifling leads me to question a common belief amongst many of us. That patches were not used when shooting roundballs out of smoothbores during the period. I do agree that with the fowling piece, musket, and buck and ball gun, no patch was used. And, there is no mention that has been found of anyone loading these guns with a patch. But, straight rifling would cause a problem with gas seal when shooting without a patch to fill the grooves. And, of someone were to have a smoothrifle, either because that is what they purchased or because they had a rifle with worn rifling bored smooth, I would assume them to be most familiar with shooting a rifle and thus be used to using a patch. It used to be commonly accepted that smoothrifles were the result of worn out rifles being rebored to smooth. There doesn't seem to be much evidence of this, and with the number of advertisements that folks like Spence have found and shared, I'm really not buying that anymore. I find the smoothrifle to have many benefits, and I'm sure folks in that time period found the same. If one is not "shooting flying," they can be seen to be very versatile and possibly superior to a fowling piece or a trade gun (with the possible exception of the Type-G) with their front and rear sights. If the user does most of their shooting, including with loose shot, at somewhat stationary targets, in other words rifle style shooting, their hit potential increases with a smoothrifle. If shooting at turkeys, squirrels, stationary rabbits, or sitting/standing birds, with shot, we are shooting as if with a rifle, only our projectile is a load of loose shot. If then we are to load a ball to shoot a deer, elk, or bison, we are still shooting rifle style. We loose nothing to have our gun built with rifle style architecture and we gain the increased hit potential (not accuracy) of front and rear sights. We only loose out to the fowling piece, if it is properly fitted to the shooter, when we start trying to hit things flying. Now, I have hit flying pheasant with my smoothrifle, but, there was much luck involved, and the conditions of the shot were a bigger factor in making the hit than my or the gun's ability. I've missed a lot more than I've hit with that gun. Many that I've missed I would likely have hit with a fowling piece fitted to me properly. So, if we take, "shooting flying," and roundball shots past 50 to 75 yards out out of the equation, a smoothrifle makes perfect sense for versatility.
Clear as mud?
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Post by spence on May 9, 2022 21:32:59 GMT -7
I suppose this could be called a "straight rifle". It's rifle stocked with all the usual carving, inlays, patch box, cheek piece, etc., .54 caliber, 46" octagonal barrel, but says it has straight rifling. It's my impression that the reason for the use of straight rifling was as an attempt to prevent the spread of shot and that it was first used in fowling pieces. Writing in 1789 the English author Wm. Cleator said: “The straight rifling of barrels, is an expedient, which, though not often practiced, yet deserves notice, as having the testimony of some amateurs to its efficacy in preventing the scattering of shot. Neither the workmen who make these pieces, however, nor the persons who use them, can give any satisfactory explanation of the principles upon which the rifling proves serviceable in fowling pieces; and some of them admit that it cannot be of any use,...." Spence
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Post by paranger on May 10, 2022 3:53:31 GMT -7
That is a very interesting passage, Spence. It confirms my impression that 18th c. shooting and firearm design was a curious blend of science and mythology.
I have found similar examples in Colonel George Hangar's "To All Sportsmen, Farmers, and Gamekeepers" book, published in 1814. He includes a section on rifles and riflemen partly drawn from his experience facing them in the AWI. Often when he offers "explanations" for the phenomena he observes, they are contrary to the physics of ballistics.
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Post by spence on May 10, 2022 7:46:06 GMT -7
Often when he offers "explanations" for the phenomena he observes, they are contrary to the physics of ballistics. Very true. Even when the writers are recognized 'experts' in the day, it's sometimes quite entertaining to see their reasoning as to why things happen. There have been quite a few instances, though, when I've seen modern day shooters put forth the same explanations as those from 300 years ago. You see a lot of that in discussions of the relationship of barrel length and the amount of powder a gun can burn, for instance. Spence
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Post by artificer on May 12, 2022 17:26:30 GMT -7
In 1730 [Caspar] Wistar established a trade connection with Georg Friedrich Hölzer, a family friend in the Palatinate. He ordered goods from Germany, which were then transported by German immigrants in their personal belongings in order to avoid British duties and then sold in his shop in Philadelphia. Using the immigrant transportation system for illicit trade was quite common among non-British immigrants at the time since the restrictions and duties imposed by the Navigation Acts were prohibitive. Although nowhere near as profitable as his land speculation, Wistar’s trade in imported commodities from the Rhine and Neckar Valleys represented an important step in his entrepreneurial and personal affairs. Establishing himself as the main supplier in an emerging market, he was able to furnish his fellow immigrants with specialized services since the items he imported (knives, scissors, needles, brass and iron goods, copper kettles, mirrors, eyeglasses, tobacco pipes, ivory combs, lace, and custom-made rifles) were not readily available in the colonies at the time. He only ordered high quality items and managed to attain market dominance in rifles by making sure his source in Germany was kept secret." www.immigrantentrepreneurship.org/entry.php?rec=1“Many gunsmiths may have spent much of their time repairing guns rather than creating new ones. There had long been a steady stream of imported guns into colonial America. Caspar Wistar imported German rifles in the 1730s and 1740s, asking his supplier to tailor them for the American market, where consumers “prefer rifles with barrels that are three feet and three to four inches long[26] [26] Caspar Wistar to Georg Friederich Hölzer, October 1, 1737, in Rosalind Beiler, Immigrant and Entrepreneur: The Atlantic World of Caspar Wistar, 1650-1750 (University Park: Pennsylvania State University Press, 2008), 145-146.” www.immigrantentrepreneurship.org/entry.php?rec=180#_edn26Note: The rifle barrel lengths mentioned above were 39 to 40 inches long, not quite the 42 to 46 inch lengths they would eventually grow to, but longer to much longer than many traditional German Jaeger or Hunting rifles. “Caspar Wistar (1696-1752), who immigrated to Pennsylvania in 1717, imported more than ï¬fty rifles, many especially tailored for the American market, from gunsmiths in Suhl and Rothenberg between 1731 and 1745.” From: JOHANN ANDREAS ALBRECHT: MAKING RIFLES IN EIGHTEENTH-CENTURY MORAVIAN ECONOMIES Scott Paul Gordon Gus
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RyanAK
City-dweller
Once scalped…
Posts: 979
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Post by RyanAK on May 12, 2022 17:35:36 GMT -7
So, if we take, "shooting flying," and roundball shots past 50 to 75 yards out out of the equation, a smoothrifle makes perfect sense for versatility. Clear as mud? Not too muddy! I agree that a smoothrifle or straight rifle make sense for versatility in a one-gun context. I wonder how many owners of arms in the mid-18th century owned more than one gun. I think I have a rebuttal to ‘Arming America’ somewhere that touches on that. We know these guns existed (smoothrifles) but I don’t have a sense on how prevalent they may have been. Appropriate for the Susquehanna frontier c.1750s? You bet.
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RyanAK
City-dweller
Once scalped…
Posts: 979
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Post by RyanAK on May 12, 2022 17:51:34 GMT -7
In 1730 … Caspar Wistar imported German rifles in the 1730s and 1740s…
[26] Caspar Wistar to Georg Friederich Hölzer, October 1, 1737… …from gunsmiths in Suhl and Rothenberg between 1731 and 1745. Gus Hiya, Gus! Get through all seven pages?? Thanks for chiming in! I love the Wistar documentation and I’m always amazed at how early the German rifles were being lengthened to meet demand. I’d love to know who the customers were and what these early longer rifles looked like. I do remember quite a few barrels and other components came into Pennsylvania via Wistar. Fascinating stuff, eh?
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Post by artificer on May 12, 2022 19:39:02 GMT -7
In 1730 … Caspar Wistar imported German rifles in the 1730s and 1740s…
[26] Caspar Wistar to Georg Friederich Hölzer, October 1, 1737… …from gunsmiths in Suhl and Rothenberg between 1731 and 1745. Gus Hiya, Gus! Get through all seven pages?? Thanks for chiming in! I love the Wistar documentation and I’m always amazed at how early the German rifles were being lengthened to meet demand. I’d love to know who the customers were and what these early longer rifles looked like. I do remember quite a few barrels and other components came into Pennsylvania via Wistar. Fascinating stuff, eh? Yeah, it took a while. LOL! MOST gun locks in the colonies were imported because individual gunsmiths here could not compete with the ones made in even small factory shops in Europe. Barrels were mostly imported for the first half of the 18th century, but imports still continued as a strong part of the market through the AWI as well. Gus
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RyanAK
City-dweller
Once scalped…
Posts: 979
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Post by RyanAK on May 19, 2022 13:27:28 GMT -7
So a local fella reached out via the MLF. He’s been building for 25 years and it turns out he and his son remember me from Scouting 25+ years ago. It truly is a small world.
Anyway, he’s offered mentorship and is plugged into a local network of builders here. Apparently there are a LOT of guys building flintlocks in the area besides Allen Martin.
I just got off of the phone with this fella and he has a couple of 20ga. octagon-to-round Getz barrels he’s offered. 1-1/16 or so at the breech. He also has a few guys within 20 miles of me that will inlet the barrel and drill the ramrod in a stock blank.
He suggested a ‘period of emergency’ Pennsylvania-built smoothbore with a composite of import and reclaimed parts. Now, I’m not sure that that kind of arm goes with the persona I’m building… (this guy is into HC/PC flintlocks but really is a builder/shooter, not into living history)… but I’m moving in the right direction.
I gotta go back to my notes and books. I had pretty well settled on an English Import Fowler… specifically one in Of Sorts… of which the Chambers kit is a very close approximation. The original gun and the Chambers kit have 20 gauge full-round barrels with fairly heavy breeches and are dramatically tapered and flared. The lighter octagon-to-round Getz barrels are also tapered. The are also real 20ga. barrels, not 12s bored to 20 with thick wall thickness.
So… some soul searching and some research. Can I build an appropriate gun around this barrel? Because this process is HIGHLY attractive for the mentoring and networking opportunities.
(Wringing hands and gnashing teeth…)
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Post by artificer on May 19, 2022 15:53:28 GMT -7
So a local fella reached out via the MLF. He’s been building for 25 years and it turns out he and his son remember me from Scouting 25+ years ago. It truly is a small world. Anyway, he’s offered mentorship and is plugged into a local network of builders here. Apparently there are a LOT of guys building flintlocks in the area besides Allen Martin. I just got off of the phone with this fella and he has a couple of 20ga. octagon-to-round Getz barrels he’s offered. 1-1/16 or so at the breech. He also has a few guys within 20 miles of me that will inlet the barrel and drill the ramrod in a stock blank. He suggested a ‘period of emergency’ Pennsylvania-built smoothbore with a composite of import and reclaimed parts. Now, I’m not sure that that kind of arm goes with the persona I’m building… (this guy is into HC/PC flintlocks but really is a builder/shooter, not into living history)… but I’m moving in the right direction. I gotta go back to my notes and books. I had pretty well settled on an English Import Fowler… specifically one in Of Sorts… of which the Chambers kit is a very close approximation. The original gun and the Chambers kit have 20 gauge full-round barrels with fairly heavy breeches and are dramatically tapered and flared. The lighter octagon-to-round Getz barrels are also tapered. The are also real 20ga. barrels, not 12s bored to 20 with thick wall thickness. So… some soul searching and some research. Can I build an appropriate gun around this barrel? Because this process is HIGHLY attractive for the mentoring and networking opportunities. (Wringing hands and gnashing teeth…)How long are the Getz barrels? Gus
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RyanAK
City-dweller
Once scalped…
Posts: 979
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Post by RyanAK on May 19, 2022 15:59:11 GMT -7
Y’a think I’d remember to mention that! 42”
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