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Post by spence on May 5, 2022 20:42:12 GMT -7
Maybe Braddock's defeat at Ft. Pitt/Duquesne.
Spence
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Post by paranger on May 6, 2022 2:53:12 GMT -7
Maybe one of these: The South-Carolina GAZETTE July 12, 1760 CHARLES-TOWN That the Number of Indians killed may be about 50; and that, having many Rifles among them, they did Execution at a greater Distance than our People could. Fort Prince George (Keowee) Feb. 28, 1760. "The same Day one of the soldiers was shot in the North East Angle of the Fort, from the Hills on the other Side of the River: He died of the Wound Yesterday. We have Reason to believe the Indians have a good many rifle barrel Guns amongst them, as their Bullets seem to come this Way with great Force.There is no Communication at present with Fort Loudoun. ---" Spence Echoee Pass (Anglo Cherokee War). That one stands out for me, too, but the Paxinosa/Albrecht quotes are 8 yrs earlier yet... |
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Post by paranger on May 6, 2022 3:55:29 GMT -7
Highlander Robert Kirk, captured at Grant's defeat in Sept 1758 and adopted by Shawnee, tells of his participation in hunting parties in the Ohio Valley in 1758-59:
"We hunted here for two moons or better and had great success. Some French traders coming up the Ohio, exchanged powder and shot with us for furrs and skins. I had succeeded so well in this party that I bought a riffle gun, some powder, and two new blankets, one of which I sent as a present to my adopted spouse, which was received as a great mark of my love and affection.”
I find this passage doubly intriguing, as he specifically mentions FRENCH traders selling him a "riffle gun."
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RyanAK
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Post by RyanAK on May 6, 2022 7:58:41 GMT -7
Highlander Robert Kirk, captured at Grant's defeat in Sept 1758 and adopted by Shawnee, tells of his participation in hunting parties in the Ohio Valley in 1758-59: "We hunted here for two moons or better and had great success. Some French traders coming up the Ohio, exchanged powder and shot with us for furrs and skins. I had succeeded so well in this party that I bought a riffle gun, some powder, and two new blankets, one of which I sent as a present to my adopted spouse, which was received as a great mark of my love and affection.” I find this passage doubly intriguing, as he specifically mentions FRENCH traders selling him a "riffle gun." I’ve read that quote before and always wondered about trading to the French for a rifle. I don’t remember seeing any mention of rifles in any of the works I’ve researched on French trade guns. My first thought was that the French may have been procuring German or Belgian rifles for the Indian trade. There is one rifle in Hamilton on a Fusil de Chasse style stock with French hardware… I’ll need to go back and review the details on that one. Robert Kirk seems like a source that would know the difference between a rifle and a smoothbore trade gun, so I think we can trust his narrative. |
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Post by paranger on May 6, 2022 8:18:54 GMT -7
Highlander Robert Kirk, captured at Grant's defeat in Sept 1758 and adopted by Shawnee, tells of his participation in hunting parties in the Ohio Valley in 1758-59: "We hunted here for two moons or better and had great success. Some French traders coming up the Ohio, exchanged powder and shot with us for furrs and skins. I had succeeded so well in this party that I bought a riffle gun, some powder, and two new blankets, one of which I sent as a present to my adopted spouse, which was received as a great mark of my love and affection.” I find this passage doubly intriguing, as he specifically mentions FRENCH traders selling him a "riffle gun." I’ve read that quote before and always wondered about trading to the French for a rifle. I don’t remember seeing any mention of rifles in any of the works I’ve researched on French trade guns. My first thought was that the French may have been procuring German or Belgian rifles for the Indian trade. There is one rifle in Hamilton on a Fusil de Chasse style stock with French hardware… I’ll need to go back and review the details on that one. Robert Kirk seems like a source that would know the difference between a rifle and a smoothbore trade gun, so I think we can trust his narrative. I agree on all counts. This passage is a bit of an enigma. As you say, I have found no other period references to the French trading or using rifles. I have read Kirk's entire narrative (Purple Mountain Press has an excellent annotated edition) and I find him pretty credible. |
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Post by spence on May 6, 2022 8:20:29 GMT -7
From Scoouwa, the captivity narrative of James Smith, also describing events in 1758, at Fort Duquesne:
"After this, the remainder of the Indians, some French regulars, and a number of Canadians, marched off in quest of General Forbes. They met his army near Fort Ligoneer, and attacked them, but they were frustrated in their design. They said that Forbes’s men were beginning to learn the art of war, and that there were a great number of American riflemen along with the red-coats, who scattered out, took trees and were good marksmen; therefore they found they could not accomplish their design, and were obliged to retreat. When they returned from the battle to Fort DuQuesne, the Indians concluding that they would go to their hunting. The French endeavored to persuade them to stay and try another battle. The Indians said if it was only the red-coats they had to do with, they could soon subdue them, but they could not withstand the Ashalecoa, or the Great Knife, which was the name they gave the Virginians. They then returned home to their hunting, and the French evacuated the fort, which General Forbes came and took possession of without further opposition, late in the year 1758, and at this time began to build Fort Pitt."
Spence
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RyanAK
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Post by RyanAK on May 6, 2022 9:59:56 GMT -7
From Scoouwa, the captivity narrative of James Smith, also describing events in 1758, at Fort Duquesne: "After this, the remainder of the Indians, some French regulars, and a number of Canadians, marched off in quest of General Forbes. They met his army near Fort Ligoneer, and attacked them, but they were frustrated in their design. They said that Forbes’s men were beginning to learn the art of war, and that there were a great number of American riflemen along with the red-coats, who scattered out, took trees and were good marksmen; therefore they found they could not accomplish their design, and were obliged to retreat. When they returned from the battle to Fort DuQuesne, the Indians concluding that they would go to their hunting. The French endeavored to persuade them to stay and try another battle. The Indians said if it was only the red-coats they had to do with, they could soon subdue them, but they could not withstand the Ashalecoa, or the Great Knife, which was the name they gave the Virginians. They then returned home to their hunting, and the French evacuated the fort, which General Forbes came and took possession of without further opposition, late in the year 1758, and at this time began to build Fort Pitt." Spence WOW! That’s a new one for me and an excellent and important piece of the record! I’ve read Bouquet’s quote asking for lead bar and loose ‘fine powder, FF’ for the ‘great number’ of provincial riflemen with him, but this is a corroborating account that confirms from the French and Indian perspective that there were enough rifles among the Forbes Expedition to not only affect the tactical situation on the battlefield, but to dramatically change the strategic situation of the entire war. Related to the guns along the Susquehanna frontier 3-4 years earlier… the rifles and riflemen from Virginia, Maryland and Pennsylvania didn’t just appear from a void. While I still believe that rifle usage among the Indians far exceeded that among whites in the colonies in the whole, maybe the numbers were more equitable in the frontier regions. I want a smoothbore… but maybe a rifle is a more legitimate choice than I first gave credence to… Fascinating stuff! |
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Post by spence on May 6, 2022 10:38:09 GMT -7
RyanAK said, "I’ve read Bouquet’s quote asking for lead bar and loose ‘fine powder, FF’ for the ‘great number’ of provincial riflemen with him,..."
Colonel Bouquet, of the 60th Royal Americans, wrote in a letter to General John Forbes, Carlisle, Pa, June 7, 1758: “A large part of the provincials are armed with grooved rifles, and have molds. Lead in bars will suit them better than bullets—likewise the Indians—but they also need fine powder FF.”
Spence
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Post by spence on May 6, 2022 11:01:26 GMT -7
Re: Indians with rifles The History and Topography of Dauphin, Cumberland, Franklin, Bedford, Adams, and Perry Counties: [PA], by Isreal Daniel Rupp, 1846, pg. 106 archive.org/stream/historytopograph00rup#page/106/mode/2up/search/smooth+boredExcerpt from letter: ************* Lancaster, 24th of April, 1756. To Hon. R. H. Morris, Gov. Honored Sir:…The Indians make use of rifled guns for the most part, and there is such a difference between these sort of guns, and smooth bored, that if I was in an engagement with the savages, I would sooner stand my chance with one of the former sort, which might require a minute to clean load and discharge, than be possessed with a smooth bored gun, which could discharge three times in the same space; for at 150 yards distance with the one, I can seldom or ever hit the board of two feet wide and six feet long. I am, your Honor’s, &c. Edward Shippen ************* Spence |
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Post by paranger on May 6, 2022 12:45:14 GMT -7
Re: Indians with rifles The History and Topography of Dauphin, Cumberland, Franklin, Bedford, Adams, and Perry Counties: [PA], by Isreal Daniel Rupp, 1846, pg. 106 archive.org/stream/historytopograph00rup#page/106/mode/2up/search/smooth+boredExcerpt from letter: ************* Lancaster, 24th of April, 1756. To Hon. R. H. Morris, Gov. Honored Sir:…The Indians make use of rifled guns for the most part, and there is such a difference between these sort of guns, and smooth bored, that if I was in an engagement with the savages, I would sooner stand my chance with one of the former sort, which might require a minute to clean load and discharge, than be possessed with a smooth bored gun, which could discharge three times in the same space; for at 150 yards distance with the one, I can seldom or ever hit the board of two feet wide and six feet long. I am, your Honor’s, &c. Edward Shippen ************* Spence THAT's the one I was looking for. I have the Rupp book, but was looking elsewhere. A memory is a terrible thing to waste!😄 |
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RyanAK
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Post by RyanAK on May 6, 2022 13:03:46 GMT -7
Way to go, Spence! Great stuff! In my material, Shippen only shows up occasionally, but when he does, the insight into this time and place is profound. He’s on my list of persons I need to track down more information from. Along with John Harris, Conrad Weiser and Henry Bouquet.
Col. Bouquet was 39 at the time of the Forbes Expedition. His accounts are excellent and I’ll track down the 6! Volumes of his papers. I’m quite sure that’s going to be a significant monetary investment.
French rifles… My research library is just getting off the ground, but I do own some of the important references. The only thing that comes close to “French rifle” is Figure 64 in Hamilton’s Colonial Frontier Guns. This book is a wealth of academic information, but some of the photography is pretty rough. Including that for Figure 64 - A RIFLE WITH TYPE C-D FURNITURE. And there’s no mention of this gun in the body of the text that I can find… just the caption with the photos. Which only tells us that it’s a .60 caliber rifle.
So… that said, it’s an interesting gun. The full octagon barrel looks to be 40” or more in length and is swamped with front and rear sights. The mountings are of French trade gun pattern, but Hamilton doesn’t state if they’re iron or brass. The stock is of a military musket type with thick wrist and high comb. The left-side buttstock isn’t shown so we don’t know if there’s a cheek rest, but I doubt there is. No patch box. There appears to be a swell at the ram rod entry pipe as on a Long Land stock. Wooden ramrod. Forestock goes to the muzzle with a cap. No provisions for a bayonet. There is, however, sling hardware present. Typical fore end swivel with another on a stud behind the rear final of the trigger guard.
Rifled barrel
Musket-style stock of unknown wood
French lock and trade gun mountings
A mystery! But a good one! French-made for the trade? American-built with scavenged French parts and an imported German rifle barrel? Hmmm…
The stock… there’s another musket-style stocked rifle shown in Of Sorts… this one obviously put together in the colonies. Interesting stuff!
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Post by spence on May 6, 2022 20:19:05 GMT -7
paranger said, "A memory is a terrible thing to waste!"
In his novel The Star Rover, Jack London wrote of the child who defined memory as the thing one forgets with. Wise child.
Spence
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RyanAK
City-dweller
Once scalped…
Posts: 979
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Post by RyanAK on May 7, 2022 7:00:18 GMT -7
I’m going to keep researching and posting what I find with regards to guns along the Pennsylvania frontier, but a PM conversation with paranger made me come to the conclusion that if I want to build something I need to make a decision and get to it! So… My big challenge is to remind myself that this won’t be the only flintlock I build/buy. I’ve been approaching this like this gun will be THE ONE and I’m giving myself analysis paralysis. Lots of options will work well. Others, not so much. I think we have that established well enough. So… Trade gun… good kits available from Clay Smith if he has walnut or beech stocks. I feel good about building a quality example. English Fowler… I need to look around a bit more, but I think Chambers’ kits are period correct and highly thought of. A lot of fine carving and engraving to be done on these!  My physical therapist thinks my smashed leg will be in good shape to start spending time in the shop within a month, so decision time! |
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Post by paranger on May 7, 2022 7:10:38 GMT -7
Hold out for beech if you go Type G. I have never heard of an original of these in walnut. Though the sample size of survivors is tiny, I believe walnut would have been reserved for military stocks or more "upscale" domestic fowler production.
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RyanAK
City-dweller
Once scalped…
Posts: 979
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Post by RyanAK on May 7, 2022 7:11:53 GMT -7
Maple and paint it? Ha.
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