|
Post by lenapej on May 15, 2022 14:52:56 GMT -7
RyanAK I think we are on the same page regarding waistcoats and jackets, thanks for your input. Brokennock I have come across mainly three styles of cuffs in reference to jackets, And there may be more. One of the most common styles I have come across is the "slash sleeve, or cuff" most of the time seen open and hard to tell if there is a button, and normally you can see the shirt cuff and 1 or 2 inches of sleeve. nother common style is the "mariners cuff" seen here usually with several buttons. The third is just a simple cuff normally without buttons (Man playing fiddle) seems like this was a later style.
|
|
RyanAK
City-dweller
Once scalped…
Posts: 973
|
Post by RyanAK on May 16, 2022 7:32:19 GMT -7
Great images to explain cuffs. One thing I’ve been considering lately is the idea of “legacy” clothing. By this I mean repaired, altered or out-of-date clothing that may have been worn by the laboring or indentured classes; or older clothing worn by the middle class when engaged in ‘casual’ activities.
This occurred to me because I’m pretty smitten with a frock that a particular tailor makes without cuffs. For my persona being a middle-class professional, a coat should have a cuff. However, I’ve used the idea of a legacy garment to ‘justify’ a possibly questionable purchase. The coat has an earlier cut, potentially purchased before my persona gained his current status. Maybe it originally had cuffs that got ragged and they were removed. Either way, this frock will represent an older coat owned by my persona that has been regulated to work and outdoor activities. A ‘second best’ garment.
For the laboring and indentured classes, consider that clothing may be secondhand, long in the tooth, repaired or altered, and possibly out of style.
What does this have to do with sleeves on a jacket? If I was buying one for a laboring class impression I’d likely default to a very simple cuff, thinking that a larger cuff would take a lot of wear and tear in daily toils. The jacket can represent a simpler as-made configuration, or a garment that was worn a bit ragged in the cuff and then altered to keep it in service.
Also consider patches, repairs and a couple mix-matched buttons. Our clothing should have a story. I guess that’s what I really mean by ‘legacy’.
|
|
|
Post by artificer on May 16, 2022 10:12:28 GMT -7
Ryan
You've done a great job collecting these images and cataloguing things so completely. I very much appreciate it and I'm sure it will be helpful to many.
If I get the following image to come up, there are some things I wish to point out.
Edited: I tried everything I knew how to do to copy the image here, but I failed. So, I have to refer you back to page 3 of this thread and the post that begins with: Charles Lennox, Third Duke of Richmond. Or… Charles Goring of Winston. Or…
Notice how WIDE the shoulder straps are on the game bag and shot pouch?
Though I've looked at that image before, I have to sheepishly admit I never really noticed that before.
Also, though I admit there is not the full shot pouch shown; when viewed in proportion to his body size, that looks like a pretty large shot pouch to me.
Why would a landed gentry person need a shot pouch that large? After all, he is almost assuredly only hunting on his land and surely is not going to stay overnight outside his country home.
Gus
|
|
|
Post by paranger on May 16, 2022 10:16:24 GMT -7
Ryan You've done a great job collecting these images and cataloguing things so completely. I very much appreciate it and I'm sure it will be helpful to many. If I get the following image to come up, there are some things I wish to point out. minuteman.boards.net/attachment/download/202Notice how WIDE the shoulder straps are on the game bag and shot pouch? Though I've looked at that image before, I have to sheepishly admit I never really noticed that before. Also, though I admit there is not the full shot pouch shown; when viewed in proportion to his body size, that looks like a pretty large shot pouch to me. Why would a landed gentry person need a shot pouch that large? After all, he is almost assuredly only hunting on his land and surely is not going to stay overnight outside his country home. Gus The straps are approximately the width of the coat buttons. Doesn't seem excessive to me.
|
|
|
Post by artificer on May 16, 2022 10:21:35 GMT -7
Ryan You've done a great job collecting these images and cataloguing things so completely. I very much appreciate it and I'm sure it will be helpful to many. If I get the following image to come up, there are some things I wish to point out. minuteman.boards.net/attachment/download/202Notice how WIDE the shoulder straps are on the game bag and shot pouch? Though I've looked at that image before, I have to sheepishly admit I never really noticed that before. Also, though I admit there is not the full shot pouch shown; when viewed in proportion to his body size, that looks like a pretty large shot pouch to me. Why would a landed gentry person need a shot pouch that large? After all, he is almost assuredly only hunting on his land and surely is not going to stay overnight outside his country home. Gus The straps are approximately the width of the coat buttons. Doesn't seem excessive to me. Compare the size of the coat buttons with his hand. Those look like VERY large coat buttons to me. Gus
|
|
|
Post by paranger on May 16, 2022 10:28:21 GMT -7
Two fingers wide perhaps? My index and middle finger together measure just under 1.5"
|
|
|
Post by artificer on May 16, 2022 10:35:31 GMT -7
Also, I did not intend to suggest the size of the straps were "excessive," rather that they are noticeably wider in proportion to the straps in almost every other shot pouch strap shown.
Gus
|
|
|
Post by artificer on May 16, 2022 10:44:46 GMT -7
|
|
|
Post by paranger on May 16, 2022 11:00:29 GMT -7
Well, his coat buttons are smaller, I'll give ya that. Still seems around two finger widths to me for the last one, though. I guess I just don't see a noticeable deviation.
|
|
|
Post by artificer on May 16, 2022 11:12:06 GMT -7
Well, his coat buttons are smaller, I'll give ya that. Still seems around two finger widths to me for the last one, though. I guess I just don't see a noticeable deviation. Does the part of the pouch you can see in the picture look larger than normal or expected? It sure does to me. Gus
|
|
|
Post by artificer on May 16, 2022 11:15:10 GMT -7
|
|
RyanAK
City-dweller
Once scalped…
Posts: 973
|
Post by RyanAK on May 16, 2022 11:45:13 GMT -7
|
|
|
Post by paranger on May 16, 2022 11:54:22 GMT -7
Well, I can't see the shot pouch, as it is underneath the subject's arm. As to the game bag on his right side, I can't say that I have seen enough 18th c. ones to get a good frame of reference. It does seem to be a bit larger than the 19th c. Germanic game bags I have seen, but then they tend to be integrsted with the shot pouch, so perhaps apples and oranges.
As to your point about the "kitchen sink" bag, I agree that the Cooke bag contains way more kit than would be the norm - particularly for the 18th c. I seem to recall that we have discussed as much a couple years back on this forum, but I could be misremembering. As I recall, one possibility suggested was that not all of the contents belonged to the original owner, or that perhaps he didn't carry them all at the same time, but they ended up stored there at some point. Tough to say.
|
|
|
Post by paranger on May 16, 2022 11:57:16 GMT -7
I haven’t been able to look back at the images or the links yet, but I believe the bag that’s visible on the Duke’s right side may be a game bag, rather than a shot pouch. I’ll also note that a surprising number of shot pouches were on the wearer’s left. I wonder if this was a cultural thing, a different convention, doing something ‘properly’, such as the difference in the way the British and Americans use silverware. View AttachmentView AttachmentView AttachmentThat first image intrigues me. Sure looks like a plug bayonet on the subject's left hip. I knew they were used to finish dangerous game like boars, but I think this is the first I have seen in a period painting. Nice find.
|
|
RyanAK
City-dweller
Once scalped…
Posts: 973
|
Post by RyanAK on May 16, 2022 12:22:46 GMT -7
I haven’t been able to look back at the images or the links yet, but I believe the bag that’s visible on the Duke’s right side may be a game bag, rather than a shot pouch. I’ll also note that a surprising number of shot pouches were on the wearer’s left. I wonder if this was a cultural thing, a different convention, doing something ‘properly’, such as the difference in the way the British and Americans use silverware. <button disabled="" class="c-attachment-insert--linked o-btn--sm">Attachment Deleted</button> <button disabled="" class="c-attachment-insert--linked o-btn--sm">Attachment Deleted</button> <button disabled="" class="c-attachment-insert--linked o-btn--sm">Attachment Deleted</button> That first image intrigues me. Sure looks like a plug bayonet on the subject's left hip. I knew they were used to finish dangerous game like boars, but I think this is the first I have seen in a period painting. Nice find. I didn’t include that first image in my dataset because 1. I don’t have the entire image, and 2. there’s enough odd things going on that I feel that the subject isn’t British or American. I feel strongly that this in on the continent. There’s a fait watermark that may be in Spanish. So then… I agree and feel certain that that is a plug bayonet meant for dangerous game. There appears to be a wide buff belt with two drawstring pouches attached. I don’t see a powder container. And the game bag (also shot pouch?) is on the left hip. Those seem like leather breeches as well. The cut of the outer garment makes me think jacket or sleeved-waistcoat, or we’re in the era when the waistcoat was short enough that it isn’t visible.
|
|