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Post by spence on Jan 14, 2023 18:05:49 GMT -7
One more, 12 buck only, no ball. Spence
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Post by hawkeyes on Jan 14, 2023 18:31:34 GMT -7
Impressive Spence! I've personally never played with the load combination as we are in the same legal game up here in the Ohio. I will however need to give this a try for experience. Excellent!
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Post by paranger on Jan 14, 2023 19:24:15 GMT -7
I have always loaded my (3 or 4) buck over ball with paper cartridge as a wad and had good results.
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Post by spence on Jan 14, 2023 19:55:18 GMT -7
I've always assumed that was the standard way of loading them. Then there is this...A Bess from a period ship wreck: Ball plus 3 buck plus 5 swan?....taking no chances. Spence
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Post by paranger on Jan 15, 2023 5:55:50 GMT -7
Seems to me I have come across that x-ray somewhere before - very cool image and nice bit of archeology.
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Post by hawkeyes on Jan 15, 2023 6:57:46 GMT -7
Very neat image which leaves me with a few questions.
Sea service bess, loaded for close quarters deck shots of rigging? Or perhaps an unlucky sailor? Potentially both?
With that type of load I highly doubt one is doing any catastrophic damage to the rigging or canvas, but could be wrong there. I feel the likelihood of that combination is more suitable against an unlucky assailant against the kings navy...
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Post by paranger on Jan 15, 2023 8:37:53 GMT -7
Very neat image which leaves me with a few questions. Sea service bess, loaded for close quarters deck shots of rigging? Or perhaps an unlucky sailor? Potentially both? With that type of load I highly doubt one is doing any catastrophic damage to the rigging or canvas, but could be wrong there. I feel the likelihood of that combination is more suitable against an unlucky assailant against the kings navy... Agreed - definitely a close range anti-personnel load there.
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Post by Black Hand on Jan 15, 2023 13:44:11 GMT -7
I've always assumed that was the standard way of loading them. Then there is this...A Bess from a period ship wreck: Ball plus 3 buck plus 5 swan?....taking no chances. Spence I'd be curious about the space between the ball and the 5 swan shot. Due to deterioration of the wadding creating gas?
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Post by artificer on Jan 15, 2023 19:00:35 GMT -7
Very neat image which leaves me with a few questions. Sea service bess, loaded for close quarters deck shots of rigging? Or perhaps an unlucky sailor? Potentially both? With that type of load I highly doubt one is doing any catastrophic damage to the rigging or canvas, but could be wrong there. I feel the likelihood of that combination is more suitable against an unlucky assailant against the kings navy... This first part might seem like I'm nitpicking, but it is important to make some distinctions on that musket to perhaps give us a better idea of what it was used for. So please bear with me. "Arms for Sea Service" or the muskets issued to a ship and used by sailors, did not have what British Ordnance called a "Thumb Piece" or what we might call a wrist plate/escutcheon. This is the brass somewhat shield shaped part on top of the stock wrist and held in place by a machine screw that came up through the trigger guard and stock below the Thumb Piece. There was no reason to add this somewhat expensive part on Sea Service Muskets because they were not issued to individual sailors. They were stored in the ship's magazine and then only handed out when needed for boarding or repelling boarders. They engraved the thumb piece on "Land Service Arms" with the regiment number over the company number alone and added over the Individual's number when it was issued, in what looks sort of like a fraction. The thumb piece engraving was done after the arms were issued to a Regiment, so a number of variations are seen on original muskets. This musket might be a Marine/Militia Pattern Short Land Pattern (SLP) Musket or it might be a Long Land Pattern (LLP) Musket issued to Infantry. So depending on what sunken ship it was on, it might have been a Marine's or a Soldier's/Militia musket. Since British "Buck and Ball" cartridges were usually made with the buck shot held in place by string over the ball, it seems the cartridge was loaded "front end first" and the paper rammed/wadded over it. I can't think why the swan shot is that far ahead of the buck shot and ball, unless it was loaded after the cartridge and wrapped in tow. Now there is even the possibility this arm had been captured and used on a French ship. Gus
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Post by spence on Jan 16, 2023 10:53:37 GMT -7
Seems to me I have come across that x-ray somewhere before - very cool image and nice bit of archeology. The Bess was apparently recovered from a revolutionary war shipwreck at Charleston, SC. You may have seen it on Keith's Woodsrunner's Diary. He always gets this stuff first. Spence
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Post by artificer on Jan 16, 2023 12:22:18 GMT -7
Was the shipwreck a British or American Ship?
Gus
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Post by spence on Jan 16, 2023 13:37:53 GMT -7
I haven't been able to find that info.
Spence
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Post by artificer on Jan 16, 2023 15:07:49 GMT -7
Thanks Spence, Gus
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Post by spence on Jan 16, 2023 15:15:47 GMT -7
Belay that. By George, I think I found it. "The muskets were found in the wreck of a British Loyalist ship that sank in St. Augustine Bar in December 1782. It was carrying Loyalists, troops and enslaved Africans who had been evacuated from Charleston, South Carolina. "The wreck was discovered by members of the Lighthouse Archaeological Maritime Program (LAMP) at St. Augustine Lighthouse & Maritime Museum. From 2009 to 2015, archaeologists with the program mapped, recorded and excavated the wreck. It has since been added to the National Register of Historic Places. "The weapons were discovered in 2012, when divers were “groping around in the dark on the ocean floor.” www.warhistoryonline.com/u-s-revolutionary-war/revolutionary-war-muskets-discovery-storm-wreck.html?chrome=1Spence
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Post by Richard on Jan 20, 2023 22:33:08 GMT -7
I would think even without the data from Spence's experiment that ball over buck would be the way to go. In my head a large round ball under the buckshot would act like a Q-ball breaking the racked balls on a pool table after the load left the muzzle. I may be mistaken, but I don't think that would happen. The ball and shot are at equal velocity when they leave the bore. Once they exit the muzzle, gravity would work on both to the same degree. The shot would spread because of angle of deflection and the effects of wind, but not because the ball hit them at higher speed. Hope this makes sense. Gus I would think that the ball, having much more mass, would lose velocity at a slower rate than the lighter buckshot and would at some point pass through the cluster, dispersing them. Whether this would happen in the short distances we are discussing, I don't know. However, it is hard to argue with success, and Spence's targets from the charges with the buckshot loaded underneath the ball, showed much better effect. A most interesting thread. Richard/Grumpa
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