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Post by brokennock on Jan 13, 2023 17:06:56 GMT -7
" On February 27th, 1760 Lieutenant Hugh Waddell reported: Copied from the Fort Dobbs website.
"We had not marched 300 yds from the fort when we were attacked by at least 60 or 70 Indians ... We recd the Indian's fire: When I perceived they had almost all fired, I ordered my party to fire which We did not further than 12 Steps each loaded with a Bullet and 7 Buck shot, they had nothing to cover them as they were advancing either to tomahawk or make us prisoners ... the Indians were soon repulsed with I am sure a considerable Loss, from what I myself saw as well as those I can confide in they cou'd not have less that 10 or 12 killed and wounded ... On my sided I had 2 Men wounded one of whom I am afraid will die as he is scalped, the other is in a way of Recovery, and one boy killed near the fort."
I have never heard of anyone using more than 3 buckshot with one round ball. Was it common practice to use more than 3?
Jack"
This was posted on that other place, caught my curiosity. Any thoughts or documentation from this superior group of intellects?
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Keith
City-dweller
Bushfire close but safe now. Getting some good rain.
Posts: 990
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Post by Keith on Jan 13, 2023 17:39:59 GMT -7
Many thanks for this quote Brokennock. I had not realised that they used the term "Buckshot" this early, & using 7 buckshot is also very interesting. Much obliged. Keith.
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Post by Black Hand on Jan 13, 2023 18:12:57 GMT -7
Was buckshot a standard size at the time?
Number would likely be dependent on bore size? Powder charge?
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Post by spence on Jan 13, 2023 18:19:34 GMT -7
The Pennsylvania Gazette August 9, 1759 NEW YORK, August 6. From a Postscript to the Boston Gazette, dated last Monday, July 30, 3 o'Clock, P.M. we have the following. This Morning a Vessel arrived at Salem, in six Days from Louisbourg; and by a Passenger just come to Town, we are favoured with the following important Advices from thence, viz.
LOUISBOURG, July 26, 1759.
...in a short Time after their Breast work was finished, they heard the Alarm given by the Battoe that was sent forward, on which they all prepared themselves to receive the Enemy, each Man having two Balls and three Buck Shot in his Gun, and were squatted. ***************** The Pennsylvania Gazette March 15, 1770 BOSTON, February 26. ....The People on hearing the Report of the Gun, seeing one wounded, and another as they thought killed, got into the new Brick Meeting, and rang the Bell, on which they soon had Company enough to beset the House Front and Rear; by the latter of which they entered, and notwithstanding the Menaces of Richardson, and his faithful Aider and Abettor George Wilmot, seized on both, and wrenched a Gun from the latter, heavily charged with Powder, and crammed with 179 Goose and Buck Shot. ***************** The Pennsylvania Gazette July 15, 1756 ANNAPOLIS, July 8. We have the following Account from the Westward, in a Letter from Col. Cresap., of the first Instant,….Two of the Men who were behind in the Road, fired and killed one of the Indians on the Spot; another says he fired at 3 Indians who stood together, with 11 Swan Shot in his Gun,
Spence
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Post by brokennock on Jan 13, 2023 19:24:25 GMT -7
"179 goose and buckshot." ?!?!?!!!!!! How much does that weigh?
I notice that one and the "11 swan shot" don't mention being in conjunction with a ball.
Spence, do I have your permission to copy and paste all that, leaving your name off of course?
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Post by spence on Jan 13, 2023 20:38:51 GMT -7
Spence, do I have your permission to copy and paste all that, leaving your name off of course? Of course. As the Ilia probe said: "It is illogical to withhold the required information." Spence
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Post by spence on Jan 13, 2023 22:45:31 GMT -7
Was buckshot a standard size at the time? A chart by Ezekiel Baker in 1821 shows two sizes of buckshot, .388" and .349". He shows swan shot as .266". Spence N.B. October of 1757, a British officer, speaking of the French and Indians, recalled, "The enemy never fire a single ball, for they always load with six or seven smaller ones (which are called buck-shot) besides their usual musket-ball."[Knox, An Historical Journal, Vol 1, 54] “General Cleaveland [British], writing from Boston in May 1776, noted that the troops there had made up 600,000 cartridges containing 4 buckshot each, and requested five tons be sent out, which was complied with by September.”
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Post by hawkeyes on Jan 14, 2023 4:43:26 GMT -7
Learned something new as well, excellent info on all frontiers gents!
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Post by spence on Jan 14, 2023 8:50:29 GMT -7
I got interested in "buck and ball" loads and spent some time testing them out. They are more complicated than you would think. and you don't get good results by simply adding some buckshot on top of your ball. I also played with buckshot only loads, and they can be quite good.
Spence
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Post by hawkeyes on Jan 14, 2023 8:59:06 GMT -7
I got interested in "buck and ball" loads and spent some time testing them out. They are more complicated than you would think. and you don't get good results by simply adding some buckshot on top of your ball. I also played with buckshot only loads, and they can be quite good. Spence Can you elaborate on you're method Spence? I've personally never attempted to use such a load in a period manner.
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Post by paranger on Jan 14, 2023 9:04:07 GMT -7
I worked up some buck and ball loads for my cavalry carbine (made from a Pedersoli short land): a .71 ball with 3 x OO (.33) buck on top in a paper cartridge.
At 35 yds or so, the ball and all 3 buckshot hit the chest and torso of a full sized cardboard silhouette target.
Needless to say, I was impressed.
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Post by spence on Jan 14, 2023 15:04:35 GMT -7
Hawkeyes, I didn't do anything very complicated. Buckshot are illegal for deer here, so I don't hunt with it, never really wanted to. I use tow for wadding, with some adjustments. My ball is .600" home cast, the gun is 20 gauge flintlock, cylinder bore, 46", front sight only. I don't have any actual buckshot, but use balls I cast for my .30 caliber rifle, .285", which is a bit smaller than buckshot but a little larger than swan. All my testing was done with loose ball, I never shot any cartridge.
I started out loading tow, bare ball, buckshot, tow, with enough tow overpowder to compress to 1/2", less than that over the buckshot. I had no luck with that combination. Shooting at standard 100 targets 15"x23" I couldn't keep all the buckshot on the paper at 20 yards. I tried from 3 to 6 buckshot, increased the powder, increased/decreased the tow, etc., no acceptable results.
I have noticed that when wadding with tow or shredded cedar bark my shots, both ball and shot, tend to be low, and I suspected gas was leaking thru the wadding, not getting a good enough barrier, losing pressure. The old boys praised folded brown paper highly, and I had tried some of that, so I tried putting folded paper over the powder before the tow, that solved that problem, the shots came up.
On a whim I tried changing my loading sequence to paper, tow, buckshot, ball, tow. A happy whim, I was startled at the improvement. I began getting not just useful patterns but really good ones, everything else the same.
Just to be complete I tried just plain buckshot loads and was very pleased. A group about 12" with 12 buckshot at 20 yards will put the hurt on most anything.
Now, if I shoot buck and ball, it will be with paper over the powder, tow wad, buckshot under the ball, never over.
This is getting long, I'll try posting some pictures a little later.
Spence
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Post by brokennock on Jan 14, 2023 15:48:21 GMT -7
I would think even without the data from Spence's experiment that ball over buck would be the way to go. In my head a large round ball under the buckshot would act like a Q-ball breaking the racked balls on a pool table after the load left the muzzle.
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Post by artificer on Jan 14, 2023 17:42:06 GMT -7
I would think even without the data from Spence's experiment that ball over buck would be the way to go. In my head a large round ball under the buckshot would act like a Q-ball breaking the racked balls on a pool table after the load left the muzzle. I may be mistaken, but I don't think that would happen. The ball and shot are at equal velocity when they leave the bore. Once they exit the muzzle, gravity would work on both to the same degree. The shot would spread because of angle of deflection and the effects of wind, but not because the ball hit them at higher speed. Hope this makes sense. Gus
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Post by spence on Jan 14, 2023 18:01:06 GMT -7
Hawkeyes, some targets. Two shots, #2 with 3 buck under ball, #3 with 6 buck over ball. The #3 ball is on target, but only 2 of the 6 buck are on the paper. Two shots, #1 with 3 buck over, #2 with 3 buck under. Spence
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