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Post by bushfire on Jan 28, 2023 23:26:29 GMT -7
My observations here in Australia are that people seem to be less and less interested in looking back into history and participating in ways of days gone by. Now @keith may have a different perspective from the next state over from me. And maybe it's completely different in the states.
I'm 31 and when I tell people that I like to hunting with flintlocks, make fires with flint and steel or navigate with a compass I generally get a laugh as response. People generally think I'm joking and when they realise I'm not they think I'm a fool. My generation seems to be focussed on instant gratification, whether that's through Facebook or in hunting getting the biggest stag the easiest way. I'm looking at spending good money on a custom flintlock in the near future while my brother just bought a fierce rifle and wants to buy a thermal scope.
My father hung a lot of crap on me for wanting to take my hawken buffalo hunting a couple of years back. I pointed out after thr trip it took him as many shots with a 416 than it did for me with a caplock.
I guess it's a million dollar question but how do we/I get people to keep this pastime alive into the future?
One positive note, my eldest son who's 4 1/2 thinks that loading through the muzzle is standard practice for guns. He recreates that when playing hunting with his brother (I always end up the grizzly).
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Post by brokennock on Jan 29, 2023 6:59:44 GMT -7
I wish I had easy or positive answers for you, but I don't. It does seem like each generation has less interest in the ways and lives of our ancestors. I think there are several sociopolitical and cultural reasons for this. Too in depth for me to try to explain here. Oddly, interest in far older times seems to hold on,,, as a fantasy escape. While we try to research and experiment with the reality of the Colonial and Early American time period, midevil and earlier times offer a fantasy land for people to escape to without having to look into or experience the reality of those times.
One thing I find very interesting, and maybe hopeful, is the interest of yourself and many others in Colonial American history. I see yourself and Keith on this forum. That other forum has several others from Australia as well as a few other countries. At first I didn't quite understand it,,, I was very confused when I first started reading Keith's stuff many years ago. I guess I still am a little confused by it given the rich history available to dive into all over the world.
However maybe I shouldn't find that too confusing. I myself sort of fall into it. In American history I am very interested in the period covered by the F&I and into the years leading up to the Revolution. Once the war starts my interest is there but starts to wane. Post Revolution interest drops rapidly. I've no real interest in the Rocky Mountain fur trade, Texas Revolution, Louis and Clark, Civil War, etc. I am however very interested in the early days of hunting and exploring in Africa. I'm extremely interested in the entire (unfortunately short) history of Rhodesia. Also the cultural history of Southeast Asia including our involvement there before and during the Vietnam War. That last would also include Australian involvement as our allies. I don't However see myself trying to live like a Montagnard or some ancient Thai culture,,, except maybe to eat like some of them. Food of various cultures is also fascinating.
I've rambled more than enough.
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Post by hawkeyes on Jan 29, 2023 8:53:15 GMT -7
I'm not even going to get started... I have zero interest in association with the modern masses, especially those our age. They can call me an old man all they want and make fun of my firelock and woodsman ways. Funny how that is as I'm always the one who produces results in procuring game.
The history side of things... It's truly evident in the mess our country is in many have no interest which is disheartening and scary.
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Post by Black Hand on Jan 29, 2023 9:46:59 GMT -7
This is a pendulum I've speculated about for some time. I was of the generation that was spanked when we misbehaved (or not) and consequently, many of my generation went to the other end of the spectrum - they did not discipline their children as they had been. They strived to be "friends" with their children thereby creating a new generation of parents that were more children than adults who had been challenged by failure and adversity. Having worked as a substitute teacher 2017-2019, the new generation of children were for the most part, self-absorbed, selfish, un-aware of the world around them and some were down-right dangerous to themselves and others because they just didn't care about others in any other way other than how they could benefit. There were a few notable exceptions that gave me hope for this generation, but for the rest, not much hope.
After that preface - I believe the pendulum will swing. After an entire generation of kids with little to no ambition to better themselves (keeping themselves in lower-paid, non-professional positions), I hope their kids will excel. There is also much truth in the statement that "those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it". We see much of this in the USA right now with some politicians wanting to drag us back into the dark ages - scientific literacy was shown to be sorely lacking with the pandemic. Armchair "scientists" who feel their uninformed opinion carries more weight than data and the hard-won knowledge of actual scientists (science is not a democracy, decided by a popularity vote). The rise of religious nationalism is frightening and partly to blame, as knowledge is dangerous to the power of religion.
Enough pontification on my part which has dangerously strayed towards the political. Suffice it to say that our hobby will never be mainstream, but enough of us exist now and will exist in the future that it will persist. After all, who wants our niche flooded with wanna-be's, people who want to play dress-up and party as well as armchair historians who have never cracked a book, slept in the snow, eaten a charred squirrel and suffered hunger, thirst, fatigue, frustration, exhaustion, elation or satisfaction in pursuit of a little hard-earned knowledge....?
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ewoaf
City-dweller
Posts: 203
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Post by ewoaf on Jan 29, 2023 9:47:26 GMT -7
Always puzzling to see the concern for lack of interest overstated by folks proclaiming to be involved with historical reenacting or living history, yet possessing an aversion towards public history. Considering the ever increasing large scale events, especially within the world wars and civil war crowds that are held completely out of the public eye, I'm hard pressed to find a reason why those folks are asking, "BuT Y Iz mUh HobEE sHuReeNkEeN?" So then you have to wonder what their motivations and goals are, which can naturally lead to suspicion, ridicule, and embarrassment. Those are very simple to overcome by being publicly transparent about what one is doing.... But many don't like the public part, so there you have it.
Another even stranger problem I'm seeing is that many of the aformentioned crowd are indeed professional public historians or site interpreters, and yet still engage in that sort of cognitive dissonance when it comes to private AND public events. We all became inspired or got bit by the big for some reason, which I'm betting came from living history or media.
TLDR: If a reenactor makes a noise in a forest but no one is around to hear it, did he really make a noise?
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Post by paranger on Jan 29, 2023 10:13:05 GMT -7
I think you have a point, ewoaf. I admit to selfishly preferring the "experimental archeology" aspect of the hobby, but I do commit myself to at least some public living history each year to give something back.
While sometimes discouraged by the seeming shallowness, lack of knowledge and interest that I encounter in the public at large (and these are the ones who actually bothered to get off the couch and come out), I am also energized by the knowledgeable and enthusiastic minority that I encounter at such events.
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Post by Black Hand on Jan 29, 2023 11:07:07 GMT -7
While sometimes discouraged by the seeming shallowness, lack of knowledge and interest that I encounter in the public at large (and these are the ones who actually bothered to get off the couch and come out), I am also energized by the knowledgeable and enthusiastic minority that I encounter at such events. I've been going to Ft Union in ND for some time now - many who visit the event are tourists in every sense of the word while a few are very curious and willing to learn. Some excellent discussions have been had at the Fort....
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ewoaf
City-dweller
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Post by ewoaf on Jan 29, 2023 12:42:30 GMT -7
I think you have a point, ewoaf. I admit to selfishly preferring the "experimental archeology" aspect of the hobby....the public at large (and these are the ones who actually bothered to get off the couch and come out), I am also energized by the knowledgeable and enthusiastic minority that I encounter at such events. I've learned that while experimental archeology has it's place, I think it's value is somewhat overly anticipated considering the difficulty in generating articulable teaching moments that it creates. It definitely comes in handy in understanding the trades considering how tools and materials are used. I don't need to practice how to be cold and miserable to understand that. Many things haven't changed, like hardship. People are becoming very interested in the idea of independence, so I like to concentrate on things that make life easier. As for the unwashed masses, the simple fact that they're out at sites and events means they're primed to take it in and be inspired. The trick is tapping into that, but sadly most interpreters aren't exactly experienced as educators. I believe there might be an underlining inherent attitude that undervalues what they have to offer. I think the future lies in media.
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Post by hawkeyes on Jan 29, 2023 15:03:11 GMT -7
I'm glad there are folks like ewoaf who have the patience and understanding to engage with the public. It's a true talent and I get it, but just don't have it anymore. I've been fortunate in my opportunities traveling abroad to have met some truly great people in other countries who seem to greatly understand things through history. The vast majority of people who don't seem to "get it" in a sense have overwhelmingly been American.
I've dealt with the public enough through my service in the armed forces and those experiences have without a doubt tainted my views. However I'm more than willing and do get get involved locally with my historical society. Being from a rural county and town where everyone knows all it's more personal and meaningful. For me it's truly worth investing locally. Time is also extremely valuable, therefore I volunteer and choose to open up/ engage with those who express the interest and are worth that precious time. Lastly I'm a hermit... I immensely enjoy being alone on my own accord, large public events are just not my cup of tea.
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Post by bushfire on Jan 29, 2023 15:43:07 GMT -7
I appreciate the responses, it seems there is no one single clear and true answer. Maybe it needs a realty show to bring back some relevance the same way forged in fire has done for knifemaking and forging (full disclosure I've never watched it in my life, but have read about its influence).
A few hours from where I live they have a lost trades fair once a year. It started out quite small but now it's unpleasant to visit as the crowds are huge. There is obviously an interest in some historical aspects, and there is a gun maker there who does flintlocks. His display is always swarmed with onlookers. But it doesn't seem to translate into new people coming into the fold on a whole.
Brokennock - I don't think it's all that mysterious, people that are interested in history are interested in it wherever it is I suppose. Maybe you guys focus on your own at the exclusion of much else because you have such a rich history from that period, while we have effectively nothing from the era (europeans settled aus in 1788) and need to look elsewhere? I don't know.
Before I start my long winded spiel, I will say I've always been fascinated by America. The people, the landscape, the animals, the history. Plenty of my friends and family that have gone visit Vegas, NY, CA and all those places that have no interest to me. I want to see the great plains, the Rockies, Appalachia, battlefields, a rendezvous, war museums, maybe some hunting and things like that.
I do know while kids my age watched cartoons and read kids books, I was watching documentaries, reading hunting books and exploring the bush around our farm with a 22lr, a knife and my hunting dog. My interest in history started with NZ big game hunting, Colonial African big game hunting and a fascination with the "Wild West" era. When I was 12 the school librarian gave me a book called "Maneaters of Kumaon" by Jim Corbett. To this day he's an idol of mine and enabled me to reconcile my love of hunting and nature and mould it into a conservationist mentality. He's very articulate and his book My India is a treasure of my book collection.
Anyway from there I got more interested in the mountain men, Jeremiah Johnson having been a favourite movie since I was young, along with Josey Wales, Young Guns, the Searchers and the Patriot. The latter made me vaguely familiar with the war of independence as a kid but it sat in the background for many years. From here I got interested in the American Civil War, particularly from the confederate perspective. I have read a lot on Rome and subsequent eras, and have always been fascinated by Hannibal and Carthage. Then I got more interested in my french ancestry and read about Napoleon and inevitably New France. Being able to tie in my own history to my fascination of North America seemed to gel all my interests around hunting, history, nature, family, war, 18th century time period and flintlock guns into one. And I really haven't looked back since. The great shame as I see it is that I've got no one to share it with here which prevents me from really immersing in that world.
I bought my first muzzleloader when I was 22, I loved the idea of them, the challenge of hunting with them and the history. I wanted a flintlock but was intimidated by the idea so I bought an inline. Eventually moved to a hawken caplock and then a flintlock. That in itself is a natural progression I think.
Anyway sorry for the long winded ranty reply all.
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Keith
Hunter
Bushfire close but safe now. Getting some good rain.
Posts: 1,002
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Post by Keith on Jan 29, 2023 18:22:18 GMT -7
My observations here in Australia are that people seem to be less and less interested in looking back into history and participating in ways of days gone by. Now @keith may have a different perspective from the next state over from me. And maybe it's completely different in the states. I'm 31 and when I tell people that I like to hunting with flintlocks, make fires with flint and steel or navigate with a compass I generally get a laugh as response. People generally think I'm joking and when they realise I'm not they think I'm a fool. My generation seems to be focussed on instant gratification, whether that's through Facebook or in hunting getting the biggest stag the easiest way. I'm looking at spending good money on a custom flintlock in the near future while my brother just bought a fierce rifle and wants to buy a thermal scope. My father hung a lot of crap on me for wanting to take my hawken buffalo hunting a couple of years back. I pointed out after thr trip it took him as many shots with a 416 than it did for me with a caplock. I guess it's a million dollar question but how do we/I get people to keep this pastime alive into the future? One positive note, my eldest son who's 4 1/2 thinks that loading through the muzzle is standard practice for guns. He recreates that when playing hunting with his brother (I always end up the grizzly). I don't think we do, I think it will eventually go the way of the dodo bushfire. For one thing Australia's history is not much fun to recreate, unless you want to be a bushranger or military. That is why I love New World living history, it is more versatile & there is a much bigger choice of personas. Also much more choice in event scenarios. However, facing facts, anthropogenic climate change is going to change our future, in fact there may not be much future left. The situation is actually very serious, & the majority of city people are not going to do anything to force the government to act. On the bright side, 18th century living historians will have the best chance of surviving anything that can be survived. Keith
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Post by brokennock on Jan 29, 2023 18:41:18 GMT -7
An excellent if lengthy reply I think Bushfire.
Ewoaf raises some very good points as well. I'm not so concerned for the future of the reenacting "hobby" myself. I'm antisocial by nature, less people doing things I enjoy is better in a selfish level. I'm more concerned about the lack of historical knowledge of current generations and their lack of interest or concern regarding history. Their skewed view that an uncomfortable history needs to be buried or taught a different way os very concerning.
Ewoaf is correct about the spark needing to come from somewhere. A reenactment attended. A historical sight with spot on interpreters. A documentary that is actually well done. And,,, occasionally,,, a Hollywood movie, but this one needs extreme caution. Unfortunately this is true of other things. I hate the thought of animals in cages or tanks, far from their natural environment,,, but,,, where else is that city kid, or kid who grows up far from a coast, going to have interest sparked in sea life or animals beyond what they see around them growing up? Will we eventually see a lack of conservationists, marine biologists, wildlife biologists,,, because as we move toward not keeping these animals in captivity,,,, that kid never got that WOW moment growing up? Just as so many don't get a WOW moment learning history.
We need people like Ewoaf. There are kids, especially eastern Native kids, who need to see and speak with Hawkeyes when he is doing his native impression. I will answer questions and discuss if I encounter people while out doing my thing, but if I see them first and can avoid them, I will avoid them. I just can't bring myself to seek the situation out.
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Post by bushfire on Jan 30, 2023 0:41:08 GMT -7
I'm an introvert myself, I think many of us that seek solitude in the wilds are. But I still would like to see more out there.
On a personal and selfish level I'm concerned about the availability of powder long term. Swiss is imported by one older gentleman and that's it.
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Post by hawkeyes on Jan 30, 2023 4:55:23 GMT -7
I'm an introvert myself, I think many of us that seek solitude in the wilds are. But I still would like to see more out there. On a personal and selfish level I'm concerned about the availability of powder long term. Swiss is imported by one older gentleman and that's it. I know a fella who deals with powder... 😊 Not particularly going to help you much being in Australia though.
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Post by Black Hand on Jan 30, 2023 5:21:09 GMT -7
On a personal and selfish level I'm concerned about the availability of powder long term. Swiss is imported by one older gentleman and that's it. Powder can be made with ingredients that are easily found....
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