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Post by armando on Mar 4, 2020 11:13:34 GMT -7
Would the TOW Tulle kit be a very difficult build for a brand new first-timer? I'm talking limited tools and minor woodworking experience. Is it mostly assembly? If there are other kits in the world for similar (or less) pricing I would consider it. I just know TOW from buying other supplies from them before. I've been wanting a Tulle for while to have an earlier Flintlock but I figured I'd better buy one since I used flinters are so hard to find outside of Rendezvous. www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/601/1/FRENCH-TULLE-FUSIL-DE-CHASSE-42-PARTS-LIST
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Post by brokennock on Mar 4, 2020 12:28:46 GMT -7
No, these kits are not mostly assembly.
Also, is a Fusil des Chase the best gun for your area and persona? I ask due to your location. This is a French gun, and while a kit for one could probably be turned into a "French influenced" New England fowling piece, with the right stock wood and some other adjustments, it would not seem it would be that common in your area. I could be wrong.
You would probably be best served with a kit from Kibler, these sound to me like they mostly need minor fitting, final finishing, and assembly, based on what I have seen others write. His Colonial Rifle is very nice and he offers smoothbore barrels to give you a nice smoothrifle. I do believe I saw him write somewhere that a fowling piece is his next planned addition to his line of kits, but I don't know when that is to be. An "in the white" kit from one of many makers would be another option. The gun is pretty much done and shootable but requires final finishing and reassembling.
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Post by Sicilianhunter on Mar 4, 2020 15:37:29 GMT -7
Would the TOW Tulle kit be a very difficult build for a brand new first-timer? I'm talking limited tools and minor woodworking experience. Is it mostly assembly? If there are other kits in the world for similar (or less) pricing I would consider it. I just know TOW from buying other supplies from them before. I've been wanting a Tulle for while to have an earlier Flintlock but I figured I'd better buy one since I used flinters are so hard to find outside of Rendezvous. www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/601/1/FRENCH-TULLE-FUSIL-DE-CHASSE-42-PARTS-LISTArmando, Nock speaks more than the truth!! If you’re not running a French (??) persona then a Fusil de Chasse is hard to play off. I made that particular mistake myself and would save you that if I can. As Nock also mentioned (he’s a sharp dude, that BrokenNock, BTW), Kibler makes and EXCELLENT kit. They are expensive but worth every penny for reasons mentioned. You can consult Hawkeyes on this as he has assembled more than a few. I lucked into a .54 cal colonial rifle that was already built and I LOVE it!! When it comes to these firearms PLEASE be PATIENT and spend money once...unlike me when I was leaping back into the craft and bought something before I knew what I was doing. Once I had a Kibler in my hands I thought, “Ah, now I know what Hawkeyes is talking about...”
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Post by hawkeyes on Mar 5, 2020 7:40:14 GMT -7
Okay! Honestly speaking, absolutely not.
I am no expert builder. I've learned from watching, studying, failures and success, looking at actual 18th century rifles, talking with master builders, more failures, making my own tools and just making it happen!
TOW wolf kits (produced by Pectonica River) are very misleading in the term "kit".
The only kit related term they should be associated with IMO are that all components are included to build the rifle advertised. Now, they do yield beautiful quality rifles but that area is left up to you. Stocks require a very large amount of shaping, inlet work and fitting. Mountings require fitting, inlet work and a monumental amount of file work. Barrels require the breechplug be properly indexed and installed, doves cut... the list goes on and on and on... Not for the faint at heart. I don't want to scare you BUT these are absolutely not beginner friendly kits. While the fusil is a relatively easier build some fine mounting work is required to nail. The easiest of those builder kits offered would be the English Fowling piece.
Personally, building from a plank is easier IMO than these kits and here is why.
These builder rifles are machined from a mechanical duplication machine which essentially sets in stone critical areas. Often times a barrel needs moved back, which has an impact on multiple other areas and parts placement. With a duplicated stock I can't move things from those fixed points which can cause a headache when castings are different from part to part. On a plank build I have total control over every single part and it's location down to the smallest screw or pin.
Now, this is why Jim Kibler has struck a gold minefield IMO... Jim has bridged that gap and truly has created a kit rifle. *Disclaimer* all the necessary skills are still required to assemble his kits, just on a lower level.
Kibler kits are absolutely phenomenal and worth every penny you pay, if not more. When you purchase a kibler you are going to receive a high quality, true kit rifle that when finished properly will have real value physically and historically. His kits are HC and documented which he can provide if you ask. I love assembling his kits, they are a pure joy and a relaxing experience, currently doing one now. From start to finish you have a kit that does indeed require effort on your part but minimal tooling is required and he includes excellent instructions for the first timer. From the swamped rice barrels, chambers locks (he now machines his own) mountings and hardware Jims kits can't be compared to anything else because he is the only one doing what he does. His stocks are produced on a CNC machine were they are fully shaped and inlet. Small fitting is required because no CNC can compensate for the difference in castings, but that work is very, very minimal. Again, I love Kibler kits and what Jim is doing for the hobby. He is super, super knowledgeable and a mindblowing craftsman who eagerly will answer any questions you have.
My personal recommendation is as follows: One, ask questions which you are doing. Two, purchase and study refrence materials. My favorite book that is always on my bench is Recreating the American Longrifle. A fabulous collection of information by a wonderful master builder. Study that book in and out. Try to actually hold and study real period rifles, a super treat which will give you first hand experience to compare other works to. Third, decide what avenue you want to take!
I don't personally know how many rifles I've assembled/ built but every one is a new learning experience. I'm currently doing my second plank build from a piece of curly ash in a simple generic Lancaster style. It has tested my patience and made me question myself, but... The end result of making smoke with a piece YOU created makes all the pain, anguish and frustration melt away. Best of luck my friend! Please share any questions you may have!
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ewoaf
City-dweller
Posts: 203
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Post by ewoaf on Mar 7, 2020 19:48:38 GMT -7
Hawk knows his shit. Kibler' s products are more in line with what you want. His YouTube vids are in real time, not sped up, and feature very useful hints. Track uses mostly Coleraine barrels which are extremely heavy, in my opinion, compared with originals. Unless you have a tricked out shop with a lot of experience, steer clear of most "kits".
Other than some rice bbls or getz, maybe a couple other hard to get bbls, you'll never find one that mimics the original weight, length or contour. I'm actually starting to use originals because they're easier to get than custom jobs.
In summary, buy a good built gun, if you can't afford that, a kibler kit, if you can't afford that, get an Indian made gun (they're really not that bad).
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Post by hawkeyes on Mar 8, 2020 5:57:12 GMT -7
I personally dislike anything but a swamped barrel. Not only are they HC but they are swamped for a reason and that is a BIG plus with a Kibler.
I've built multiple TOW builder rifles with straight Green Mountain barrels. While they are excellent shooters, they lack balance and stability. Very awkward and cumbersome to tote around and shoot all day. A swamped barrel places the balance point right were you hold the rifle, point of aim is easier to maintain and cuts down on weight. This makes every difference in the world and truly is a big deal.
I have never worked with an Indian made rifle. However, I've personally tossed the idea around with picking one up and working it. What people fale to realize is the Indian made rifles are going to utilize a modern steel, which obviously is going to be better quality and more consistent than 18th century material. I honestly wouldn't hesitate picking one up to work with. However from what I've read they can require some work to fine tune, which can be a challenge for less experienced individuals.
I always tell people saving pennies and exercising patience to obtain a quality kit rifle is always the smart move. I also will assemble rifles for people, due to time constraints and other commitments I'm very particular at what I'll take on. However assembling a Kibler kit is a very doable task.
Case in point, a high quality rifle absolutely is worth every single penny spent. The difference between say a Pedersoli reproduction (best mass produced gun) and say a Kibler kit is night and day, zero comparison across the board.
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Post by Black Hand on Mar 8, 2020 6:19:39 GMT -7
All that said, a smoothbore/fowling piece is an easier project (compared to a rifle) when starting - at least, this has been my experience.
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Post by hawkeyes on Mar 8, 2020 10:34:48 GMT -7
Absolutely agree. I do believe with enough resources and research someone new can carefully piece together tracks English fowler. I've built two and they are an enjoyable project without much hassle.
Wood removal is heavy, but not bad.
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Post by Black Hand on Mar 8, 2020 10:36:21 GMT -7
Wood removal is heavy, but not bad. Horseshoe/Farrier's rasp and/or plane - I prefer the plane, less tool marks to clean up.
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Post by hawkeyes on Mar 8, 2020 12:18:29 GMT -7
Wood removal is heavy, but not bad. Horseshoe/Farrier's rasp and/or plane - I prefer the plane, less tool marks to clean up. Agree, depending on what wood I'm working. I prefer hand planing walnut and cherry. For fast removal and shaping I'll usually rasp.
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Post by hawkeyes on Mar 9, 2020 6:18:16 GMT -7
To give some perspective of what is required even on a Kibler kit there are some fine details which will make your rifle stand out and function better. Note, this particular area isn't required under normal circumstances but it will enhance reliability and ultimately that is more important to me than a fast lock. Filing your feather or steel spring and mainspring. My experience with the round face English locks are that these two springs are usually very stout. This isn't necessarily a cause for worry unless you are breaking flints. However I personally like my steel to snap open with little resistance. This along with shaping the bearing surface of the steel that rides the feather spring will enhance that. Care must be taken, it is critical there be no gouging or filing marks left on the top surfaces as this presents a weak spot in a properly hardened and tempered spring. I polish the surface to a high shine, then reassemble the lock and test for functionality. Until I'm satisfied the above process is repeated. The same is done for the mainspring until I'm satisfied with the results. From my experience and talking with other builders this does increase longevity of the steel, flint and high wear areas of the lock. A little goes a long way and not much material is in need of removal. Unlike wood, metal cannot be replaced once to much has been removed. This is just a small, small detail in the lock area alone. In the end every area of an assembly/build will go hand in hand. Lightening springs isn't something I'd recommend unless you have experience doing it, you can break them easily if care isn't taken. Just wanted to share my thoughts in an area that is often overlooked. Building is certainly involved and quality is in the unseen details. Filing before final polishing
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Post by armando on Mar 9, 2020 6:25:46 GMT -7
Fellas, Would a Jaeger be period correct for F&I period?
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Post by Black Hand on Mar 9, 2020 7:04:42 GMT -7
I guess it depends. Might be feasible if you were a Hessian fighting in the Colonies but not necessarily for a common colonist. An English smoothbore would be most likely as rifles were somewhat uncommon for the common man.
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Post by hawkeyes on Mar 9, 2020 7:09:04 GMT -7
Evidence for use of rifled guns in the French and Indian war is common, but no known guns survive from the main period of the conflict. Newspapers in many places were advertising rifle parts for commercial sale as this example from South Carolina shows;
The SOUTH-CAROLINA Gazette November 4, 1756 JOHN DODD , Gun-Maker in Meeting-Street CHARLES-TOWN HAS to sell a parcel of very neat rifle-barrel guns, from 3 to 4 feet in length; and continues to do all sorts of gun-work in the best manner.
Accounts of native raiders in Pennsylvania with rifles appear as early as 1730 and go all through the French and Indian war period. Robert Kirk, a private in Montgomery’s Highlanders (77th Foote), purchased a rifle during his period of Indian adoption over the winter of 1758-59.
“We hunted here for two moons or better and had great success. Some French traders coming up the Ohio, exchanged powder and shot with us for furrs and skins. I had succeeded so well in this party that I bought a riffle gun, some powder, and two new blankets, one of which I sent as a present to my adopted spouse, which was received as a great mark of my love and affection” (McCulloch & Todish, 48)
Natives lived and died by their ability to hunt and recognized the superior abilities of rifled guns.
‘Riffled Carbines’ were issued to the light infantry for Abercromby’s Ticonderoga campaign at a rate of one per ten men in the following regiments; 27th, 42nd, 44th, 46th, 55th, 60th, 80th (Gages Light Armed), and Bradstreets Batteaumen.
Gerneral order for 12 June 1758 were “Fort Edward Camp. Each Regt. to receive 10 riffled pieces from the store, and to return the like number or firelocks for them”.
July 1, 1758 ” Capt Sheperds Company of Rangers to discharge thier pieces between 3 and 5 this afternoon. The Regts may try thir riffles at the same time”.
As for the provincials Colonel Bouquet, of the 60th Royal Americans, wrote, “A large part of the provincials are armed with grooved rifles, and have molds. Lead in bars will suit them better than buttlets—likewise the Indians—but they also need fine powder”
Production of Jaeger "style" rifles took place in the German states from the beginning of the 17th century and were in military service with specialist German troops from the 1650s. Sweden began importing them in 1711 and they would have been commercially available in Europe and could have been imported into America or immigrated with Germanic and Swiss settlers.
The oldest surviving American rifle is the John Shreit rifle housed in the William duPont collection and dated to 1761. Unfortunately this rifle was rebuilt in the early 19th century and so cannot be used as an example of an F&I era gun. The first of the famous Pennsylvania long rifle makers, Andreas Albrecht, opened his shop in Christian Springs PA in 1761. These early guns probably resembled trade muskets and were intended for sale, although not exclusively, to the natives.
In short... unlikely but possible.
What type of Jaeger do you have access to? A fine Jeager is worth some $$$ however, pedersoli's Jaeger isn't one and it falls short in many true Jaeger areas. That is the only production rifle I've handled in it's form. While nice, nothing HC about it. I do intend on building a true Jaeger as they are some FINE firelock weapons and truly artistic.
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Post by artificer on Mar 9, 2020 16:17:19 GMT -7
Fellas, Would a Jaeger be period correct for F&I period? First, I agree the Pedersoli Jaeger is NOT a period correct Jaeger rifle and would not advise purchasing it for that use. However, German Jaeger (Hunter's rifles) and other rifles were most certainly being imported into Pennsylvania as early as 1717 when Caspar Wistar brought his with him and then imported locks, barrels and whole rifles in the 1730's and 1740's. Though by the end of that period, the preferred barrel length was longer than a common Jaeger rifle. "Caspar Wistar imported German rifles in the 1730s and 1740s, asking his supplier to tailor them for the American market, where consumers “prefer rifles with barrels that are three feet and three to four inches long.”[26]" www.immigrantentrepreneurship.org/entry.php?rec=180Earlier commonly short barreled Jaeger Rifles continued to be used in the colonies as long as they remained serviceable. The British use of Jaeger armed German troops in the FIW is also documented by Bailey in his works, along with other sources. But we have to remember they used "bare bones" German CIVILIAN Jaeger rifles and not a rifle specifically made for military use by a National Government or a National Armory. Gus
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