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Post by paranger on Aug 5, 2020 7:32:47 GMT -7
I was so excited after months of searching to find a source of hand forged blade blanks of the proper size and thickness (1/8") for French boucherons! This is my prototype: it is a large 7 pouce (7 7/16 English inches) "type c" blade profile, with the characteristic 4 degree drop from the about the midpoint of the spine to the tip, and approximately 1 1/2" wide blade with rounded shoulder. It is handled in pc French yellow boxwood (which is becoming nearly impossible to find), with 1/8" pins set one pouce (1 1/16") apart.  |
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Post by hawkeyes on Aug 5, 2020 11:16:03 GMT -7
Very nice, now time for a plug bayonet!
Where are you sourcing blanks from if I may ask, or is that a trade secret!? Very nice work again.
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Post by brokennock on Aug 5, 2020 11:29:34 GMT -7
Very nice job on the handle, nice and clean an symmetrical, far better than my attempt at that shape.
I do have a question, Not a criticism, don't the handle scales on originals extend forward onto the blade a bit? Or was this just on English knives?
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Post by paranger on Aug 5, 2020 11:39:38 GMT -7
Very nice, now time for a plug bayonet! Where are you sourcing blanks from if I may ask, or is that a trade secret!? Very nice work again. Hawkeyes, It's a Jeff White blade, though NOT one of his French trade knives, ironically, which are really too thin at .085". I have found that none of his profiles are historically accurate in shape or dimensions, but with a little work some can be modified to be. Unfortunately, they drive my material cost up significantly, but, of course they ARE hand forged and I found this one to be a pleasure to work. |
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Post by paranger on Aug 5, 2020 11:45:04 GMT -7
Very nice job on the handle, nice and clean an symmetrical, far better than my attempt at that shape. I do have a question, Not a criticism, don't the handle scales on originals extend forward onto the blade a bit? Or was this just on English knives? Nock, it's an astute observation. As far as my research has been able to determine, this overlap only occurred on the smaller (5 pouce) boucherons. One theory that I have read is that the handles were a precut "one size fits all" affair, so perhaps they were seated farther forward on the smaller blade and aft on the larger ones out of a sense of proportion. Don't know the reasoning for sure. You can see the overlap on this 5 pouce effigy boucheron.  Here's a really nice medium boucheron by Kyle Williard at Old Dominion Forge that he bench copied from an original in his collection. Note no overlap.  Ken Hamilton and Kevin Gladysz's excellent article "French Knives in North America: Part III" in Journal of the Early Americas includes archeological examples of both configurations. The one pictured with handle overlap appears to be a 5 pouce there as well. |
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Post by hawkeyes on Aug 5, 2020 13:10:26 GMT -7
Do you have a forge? If your able to work some good tool steel I'll send you some to work up your blanks.
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Post by paranger on Aug 5, 2020 13:26:21 GMT -7
Do you have a forge? If your able to work some good tool steel I'll send you some to work up your blanks. Nope, sure don't. Haven't taken that plunge yet. Maybe someday... Kind of you to offer, though! |
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Post by hawkeyes on Aug 6, 2020 5:21:58 GMT -7
Do you have a forge? If your able to work some good tool steel I'll send you some to work up your blanks. Nope, sure don't. Haven't taken that plunge yet. Maybe someday... Kind of you to offer, though! Ah, okay worth asking! Your welcome. |
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lrb
City-dweller
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Post by lrb on Apr 9, 2021 9:41:56 GMT -7
For PC accuracy and profiles, study Ken Hamilton's Boucherons. For English, study Kyle Willyards scalpers.
A forge is not necessary if you can find some 1080/84/ in thin stock. You can also use 01 steel in most any size you might want. Without a heat treat oven, you cannot get the best out of the 01, but it will still make a good blade,
with a simple heat treat. With simple knife designs, forging is not necessary, and does nothing to improve the steel. There are only two reasons to forge blades. #1, if radical curves or multi level surfaces are needed such as integral bolsters on a scimitar shaped knife.
#2, just because that is the way you choose to do it. All actual performance and quality is in the heat treat and choice of steel.
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Post by paranger on Apr 9, 2021 12:05:12 GMT -7
For PC accuracy and profiles, study Ken Hamilton's Boucherons. For English, study Kyle Willyards scalpers. A forge is not necessary if you can find some 1080/84/ in thin stock. You can also use 01 steel in most any size you might want. Without a heat treat oven, you cannot get the best out of the 01, but it will still make a good blade, with a simple heat treat. With simple knife designs, forging is not necessary, and does nothing to improve the steel. There are only two reasons to forge blades. #1, if radical curves or multi level surfaces are needed such as integral bolsters on a scimitar shaped knife. #2, just because that is the way you choose to do it. All actual performance and quality is in the heat treat and choice of steel. Thanks, Wick. Didn't know you were lurking out there! Good food for thought - especially about heat treatment. I have always felt Ken Hamilton to be the trade knife gold standard - particularly, as you say, on the French side. By way of update, I found a bladesmith in CO to crank out a few O1 blades for me to my specs. This one is a bench copy of an original blade found at a French campsite during the 1757 siege of Ft. William Henry, complete with fleur de lys cutler mark.  BTW, speaking of Ken's boucherons, any idea why he took to producing some 3 pin boucherons with split boxwood handle scales, and the third pin only through the handle and not the tang? I have personally seen no primary source evidence to support this. He and Kevin Gladysz do not mention it in their article and no one else seems to be making them like this. Of course, archeologically speaking, unless one turned up with a handle like this intact, it would be indistinguishable from a standard 2 pin boucheron blade. Any insight? |
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lrb
City-dweller
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Post by lrb on Apr 9, 2021 12:30:22 GMT -7
So, is this person doing the blade, and you do the grip?
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Post by paranger on Apr 9, 2021 12:33:49 GMT -7
So, is this person doing the blade, and you do the grip? He roughs it out as a blank then heat treats it. I do final grinding, filing, and sanding to desired spec and finish then handle it. I am sure you know this, but perhaps others might be interested to know that 18th c. trade knives, like many guild regulated products, were produced by tradesmen of multiple distinct trades. In Hallamshire, for example, it took three trades working together: bladesmith, cutler, and sheather, with the cutler being in overall charge of assembly, finishing, quality control, and marketing/sales. I like to think our collaborative effort is part of the historical accuracy 😊 |
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lrb
City-dweller
Posts: 27
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Post by lrb on Apr 10, 2021 5:00:01 GMT -7
The remains of a couple hundred boucherons with the three pins were found in a river, where a French freight canoe/boat, went down. Ken seems to now believe that the third pin is the, or a, common construct for boucherons. So few originals that are intact have been found, it is anyones guess.
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Post by Black Hand on Apr 10, 2021 6:00:55 GMT -7
BTW, speaking of Ken's boucherons, any idea why he took to producing some 3 pin boucherons with split boxwood handle scales, and the third pin only through the handle and not the tang? I have personally seen no primary source evidence to support this. He and Kevin Gladysz do not mention it in their article and no one else seems to be making them like this. Of course, archeologically speaking, unless one turned up with a handle like this intact, it would be indistinguishable from a standard 2 pin boucheron blade. Any insight? With a tapered tang being inserted into a saw cut in a 1-piece handle, a 3rd pin through the handle aft of the cut might keep the wood from splitting when the blade is seated. |
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lrb
City-dweller
Posts: 27
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Post by lrb on Apr 10, 2021 6:58:54 GMT -7
Nope. The three pin knives found were two piece grips. The wood or remains was still on most or all of them. Two piece grips would be easier to make than having to slot a one piece. I have seen old taper tang butcher knives done this way but with a double row of pins.
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