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Post by artificer on Sept 3, 2020 8:09:01 GMT -7
Folks, this is a double posting I also put on the other forum, plus a little more. WOW, I’m excited to share this with you all, even though I realize I may be figuratively lighting a fuse towards a 100 lb keg of intellectual powder. It seems there actually IS one original Flint Rifle of very late 18th century or more likely very early 19th century, that has survived with its original Horn, Pouch and accoutrements. Originally owned by David Cooke “David Cooke is located in the tax records of Norristown, PA from 1780-1842 at which time he died. He must have been a hunter with no other occupation since none is listed for him. Cooke hunted for a living and either sold or traded the game he shot. His rifle and the entire contents of his hunting pouch were kept intact by his family for several generations until the last of his clan, a great granddaughter, sold it to Mr. Roob. This display was featured in the Kentucky Rifle Association Bulletin in the summer of 1976 and also was featured in The American Hunter magazine in December of 1975 PROVENANCE: Frank Sujansky Collection.” The display of the pouch and horn is amazing!!! Of VERY special interest that may be otherwise overlooked is the fact the folding knife shows David was LEFT handed and thus by how the horn is hung, may/probably shows he hung his pouch on the RIGHT side of his body. 2.bp.blogspot.com/-130kT_PnvpI/Uj2RdeaWLlI/AAAAAAABLNU/2O6ebFAy5lM/s1600/Picture+2.pngMore in this link: Rifle and Hunting Pouch Carried by David Cooke The .45 caliber rifle is shown with the Pouch/Horn contents in the link above and in the link below. To me, the lock means it is a very early 19th century rifle, though it has a wooden patch box. I may be wrong about when the rifle was made, though, and would love to hear other’s thoughts on that. Second Link: EXCEEDINGLY RARE RIFLE AND ACCESSORY COLLECTION CARRIED BY FRONTIERSMAN DAVID COOKE. Though the pouch seems to be late 18th century style, it has enough “stuff” in it to warm the hearts of Keith and me. GRIN. OK, folks, let the games begin!! Gus |
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Post by paranger on Sept 3, 2020 10:27:28 GMT -7
Gus,
Very interesting, thanks for sharing. However, I was only able to find a link for the bag and accouterments, not the rifle. Did I miss something?
One of the first things that strikes me is the assumption that the folding knife was made to be "left-handed" presumably because the "nail nick" is on the right side of the blade. First of all, the "nail nick" is generally regarded as a 19th century (and later) feature. I, for one, am willing to entertain the possibility of the emergence of this feature in the late 18th c., though I have as yet seen no conclusive evidence either way. That said, I am not convinced that the convention which we now consider to be standard of placing the nail nick on the weak hand side for the thumb represented any such consensus at its origin - particularly for a "homemade" piece. The user could just as easily have planned to use the weak side index finger as the weak side thumb.
A much surer tell, for me, would be the rifle. Left handed locks on PA rifles, though rare, do survive. Naturally, a right handed lock does not conclusively prove a right-handed owner, either, however.
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Post by Black Hand on Sept 3, 2020 12:03:06 GMT -7
I ran across this display several years ago. I'm not entirely convinced that this is a complete and original collection as we all know how easily things get "added" by well-meaning but uninformed people. We've seen items mislabeled and word-of-mouth provenances accepted that may not be accurate.
I am in agreement with PA in that the nail nick appears to be more of a 19th century feature and the side of the blade where it is found wouldn't be an indicator of the handedness of its owner.
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Post by artificer on Sept 3, 2020 12:29:22 GMT -7
Hi Pararanger, I could get both links to work by copy/pasting them into the browser, but here is another link that might be a more direct link than the first link: contemporarymakers.blogspot.com/2013/09/rifle-and-hunting-pouch-carried-by.htmlIn the Auction Site link, there are small rectangles at the bottom you have to click on to see the rifle. What is great about that link is both the right and left sides of the rifle can be seen close up using the little "+" icon (or whatever it's called in computer savvy language.) A valid point on the nick in the folding knife blade. It would be most interesting to examine the knife and see what the wear pattern is on the grip as to whether or not it may be left handed. Gus |
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Post by paranger on Sept 3, 2020 13:45:05 GMT -7
Got it that time. Thanks, Gus.
I agree with your observation of the lock being a later (19th c.) one. It would seem to be somewhat incongruous with the wood patch box typical of the 2nd and 3rd quarters of the 18th c. Perhaps just Cooke's personal preference? Overall, the utilitarian sparseness and the Lehigh stock shape suggest 19th c. "schimmel" to me, with the one obvious exception of that patchbox.
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Post by artificer on Sept 3, 2020 17:16:16 GMT -7
I ran across this display several years ago. I'm not entirely convinced that this is a complete and original collection as we all know how easily things get "added" by well-meaning but uninformed people. We've seen items mislabeled and word-of-mouth provenances accepted that may not be accurate. I am in agreement with PA in that the nail nick appears to be more of a 19th century feature and the side of the blade where it is found wouldn't be an indicator of the handedness of its owner. I won't argue that things handed down through a family might have things added to them over time. So in such cases, we should look for things that were either too late for the period or incongruous to a Shot Pouch of a man who was born in 1761 and was thus 80 or 81 when he passed in 1842. That is a LONG life for the period and a darn good "run" even for this day and age. By the turn of the 19th century, he was already around 39 years old. Maybe this is why there is a wood patch box on a rifle of the early 19th century, IOW he surely saw rifles with wood patch boxes in his early years and may have just liked them better than no patch box or a brass patch box. So I guess the first question must be, what, if anything is too late for 1842 when David passed? Second question. We know that Shot Pouches in the 19th century are generally larger and other originals have been found with a lot of "stuff" in them that we don't see in minimalist 18th century Pouches, nor 19th century day pouches. So, for a man who made his entire life's work/wages from hunting, why would there not be more "stuff" in the Pouch than in other pouches? Gus |
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Post by spence on Sept 3, 2020 17:33:55 GMT -7
A very interesting outfit, thanks for posting, Gus. One thing which caught my attention right away, on both the CLA and auction site it is stated that all the accessories shown were carried in the hunting pouch. I doubt that was true. They may well all have belonged to David Cooke, and he may have carried them all in his pouch at various times, but I don't believe all in the pouch at once. Everything needed for shooting, eating, seeing, making music, fishing, calling game, smoking your pipe, sharpening your flint, molding balls, finding way and your dog in the shot pouch? Can't get my head around that. It never occurred to me to carry a quail call. Are we supposed to believe he shot quails with his rifle after calling them in? I have collected ads for quail calls from as early as the 1760s, but they also offered quail nets, the more usual way of "fowling" for them. There may be some parts of this puzzle missing.  I love the fishing bobber. The kit has a rustic, well used feel which is pleasant to see. For me, the overall impression is of an outfit from the 1830s to 1840s, with some items probably older but used over a long period of time by one hunter up to that period. BTW, can someone explain what is meant by a "sheath buttplate"? Spence |
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Post by artificer on Sept 3, 2020 19:28:33 GMT -7
Hi Spence,
First, I have no idea what a "Sheath Buttplate" is, so I'm no help there.
I learned to carry more "stuff" in my Shot Pouch after competing in the old Northwest Gun Matches, where if you didn't carry something on your body or in your pouch that you occasionally or rarely needed - but needed desperately during the match, you did without and generally lost the match. I saw way too many "minimalist" people lose the match from things like that when they didn't have something they needed. That's no big deal in modern times, but in older days, that could mean something far more significant.
Actually, I love the video Keith made where he pulls all the stuff out of his Shot pouch and Belt pouch that he considers necessary when he goes on a hunt.
Besides the quail call and dog bell, did you notice the crow call?
No, I don't think he shot quail or crows with his rifle, but I suspect this tells us something else not yet considered. Just because the items were STORED in the pouch, doesn't mean he kept everything in the pouch when he went hunting. IOW, he might well have kept everything in the pouch he found necessary for hunting, but THEN took items out of the pouch and put them in pockets when he actually went on a hunt. At the end of the hunt, he put the things back into the pouch from his pockets, so everything would be there for the next hunt.
Did you notice what I think is a leather repair to the powder horn? Not sure that is period and it may well not be. Also, I'm not sure about the brass plate on the front of the pouch.
Gus
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Post by spence on Sept 3, 2020 20:49:32 GMT -7
It has been 180 years and several generations since that gear was used, and it's impossible to know what has happened to it in all that time. I'm inclined to accept that the gear is legit because it has been vetted by some serious collectors, and they invest a lot of money based their conclusions. As to what was carried when, and for what reason, I think that will always be a mystery. Just seeing the kit is neat enough, though, I don't need a story to go with it.
That was a good find, Gus. I particularly like it because it seems to be an 'everyman' kind of kit, plain, utilitarian, practical and not at all fancy.
Spence
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Post by artificer on Sept 3, 2020 22:38:32 GMT -7
One thing more about the Pouch, Horn and accoutrements.
With a full bullet board, there is no reason to go into the pouch during hunting whatsoever, because everything he needs to load the rifle is hanging from the straps of the pouch. There's enough holes in the bullet board to take quite a few squirrels and rabbits, if he was so inclined. There are MORE than enough holes for medium to large game hunting.
So perhaps by the time David Cooke passed, the Shot Pouch was used more like a knapsack or pack to store anything and everything else he might need and it would all go in that pouch?
I too like the fact the items are of the kind any person of any status might have used. I particularly found the knife, fork and spoon very interesting, as I have a similar set. Just like David's, I ground my knife so it is pointed and sharpened to cut meat and other food stuffs. Have to admit I did give up on the horn spoon after a number of years and went with a pewter spoon instead, though.
Gus
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Post by brokennock on Sept 4, 2020 1:55:18 GMT -7
I was thinking the same as Spence and Gus considering the large amount of "stuff" allegedly carried "in" this bag, just because it was stored in the bag doesn't mean it was carried in the bag.
Hadn't considered the thought that with a ball/bullet board and a powder measure/charger hung from the bag or horn strap, and a horn, there is no need to get into the bag for every reload. So, one could carry more stuff in the bag without messing up the reload.
Gus, I liked this post on the other forum, but it is much better here.
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Post by hawkeyes on Sept 4, 2020 5:10:20 GMT -7
My observations are as discussed by other's. A wonderful display of accouterments I'd certainly be proud to put on display in my nook. The jews harp caught my eye... My dad would play one when I was younger, always loved hearing that trinket make the sounds it does! Thanks for sharing Gus, enjoyed looking over those pieces.
I could only get the first link to work as well... Any other way to access that second image?
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Post by artificer on Sept 4, 2020 8:43:24 GMT -7
My observations are as discussed by other's. A wonderful display of accouterments I'd certainly be proud to put on display in my nook. The jews harp caught my eye... My dad would play one when I was younger, always loved hearing that trinket make the sounds it does! Thanks for sharing Gus, enjoyed looking over those pieces. I could only get the first link to work as well... Any other way to access that second image? Is this the link you are looking for? contemporarymakers.blogspot.com/2013/09/rifle-and-hunting-pouch-carried-by.html Gus |
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Post by artificer on Sept 4, 2020 9:08:33 GMT -7
I was thinking the same as Spence and Gus considering the large amount of "stuff" allegedly carried "in" this bag, just because it was stored in the bag doesn't mean it was carried in the bag. Hadn't considered the thought that with a ball/bullet board and a powder measure/charger hung from the bag or horn strap, and a horn, there is no need to get into the bag for every reload. So, one could carry more stuff in the bag without messing up the reload.
Gus, I liked this post on the other forum, but it is much better here.
There are still some folks on the other board who I figured would appreciate the post, but I agree we have a much better discussion and appreciation of it here. Haven't checked the other board today, but no one there caught the folding knife not being left handed just because of the nick on the right side, just as I had originally missed it.
I've been around bullet boards since the first time I attended the Spring Nationals at Friendship in 1974 and I've had Madison Grant's book on Hunting Pouches not long afterward. In Grant's book and other sources, some of the 19th century pouches were found with all kinds of "stuff" in them when collected or photographed. However, until this discussion, I also never before thought about the fact they had everything they needed to shoot the gun (normally) without going into the Pouch when they needed to reload. That was a bit of an epiphany to me and why I commented on it.
Spence said it best when he noted the accoutrements were of the type "anyone" could have used in the period and showed honest use. I think we, here, have a better appreciation of that than on the other board.
I keep going back to the display board and noting little things I missed the first couple of times. The dagger (or at least what looks like a dagger) on the pouch strap is interesting enough, but what finally caught my eye was instead of the sheath enclosing the tip of the blade, there is an extra piece of leather between it and the strap under the point, presumably so the point would not pierce the strap. I found that interesting and a unique way of solving what could otherwise have been a problem area.
Gus
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Post by hawkeyes on Sept 4, 2020 10:24:48 GMT -7
That worked, thank you. Some absolutely beautiful super tree curl on that simplistic rifle gun. Beautiful lines throughout, they flow elegantly with no pizazz. My style of rifle!
Notice the roller bearing on the steel, I'm wondering if for sure this is the original lock for the rifle or a replacement that was installed later on into the earlier parts of the 19th century? I'll have to double check but I'm almost certain the roller bearing was showing up more promptly around 1824ish and on.
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