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Post by brokennock on Sept 6, 2020 8:42:45 GMT -7
Dangerous territory for the supposition of improvisation here.
As I understand it, in then18th century the civilian on foot, outside of town more than a day, hunting, scouting, traveling to battle, traveling to find a new homestead, retreating from battle/escaping enemies,,,,, you get the idea, was a rarity. Also, based on the few extant rifles, trade guns,and fowling pieces, sling mounts were also a rarity.
Now, I'm no horseman, I've ridden a little a few times, so I can't claim to know otherwise. It seems to me that riding a horse over rough terrain, or at high speed, or both, it would be difficult to both control one's horse and hang on to one's gun.
Supposition, a sling or carrying strap seems like a mighty good idea in these cases.
Any indications in primary documentation of how this was handled? Any written records of it going wrong?
I'm just curious, no intention of getting into horses. Untrustworthy beasts they are. Rather have a stubborn but steady mule than a flighty horse that freaks out over random inane objects and occurrences.
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Post by Black Hand on Sept 6, 2020 9:50:09 GMT -7
The last place I'd use a sling is on the back of a horse. Guns were likely carried at the ready while in the saddle - some guns show wear in the forestock area attributed to saddle wear (gun held in the hand and rested on the saddle). From what I understand, an experienced horseman uses their knees and body to "steer" a horse and the reins are more of a formality. In rough country, I suspect they walked along side to avoid issues if the horse slipped, fell or bolted.
While horses would be a great asset for carrying gear, they seem to come with challenges associated with being a prey animal.
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Post by Sicilianhunter on Sept 6, 2020 12:30:23 GMT -7
Horses can be unpredictable even if well trained, mules much less so.
I am not an experienced horseman either even with the time I have behind me taking care of them and riding them.
A VERY well trained horse responds to cues delivered by knee pressure WHEN they are behaving.
Reigns, a bit and spurs gives them incentives when they are unsure of their behavior.
I don’t know that taking a spill off your mount would be great for your back or that it wouldn’t get snagged on a low hanging branch and unseat you.
Having loose in your hand, braced or not could get tiring and/or tedious but might actually be safer for you and your weapon if your horse sees a ghost and freaks out causing you to bail out.
All of that being said, I don’t know that I would put sling swivels on my long guns unless they were military arms BUT it’s a good idea to have a sling that can be tied on should you need your hands free to drag a kill or negotiate sketchy terrain
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Post by paranger on Sept 6, 2020 12:38:28 GMT -7
Unless, of course, you are a cavalryman (or ex- cavalryman, perhaps?). Then you can carry a rig like this one...  |
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spence
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Post by spence on Sept 6, 2020 15:50:26 GMT -7
I have a description of carrying a rifle on horseback, essentially military, probably British, but in this instance by a rebel militia unit. It is from late in the AWI. From the papers of Archibald D. Murphey: “….directed Adjutant Graham, who had now recovered of his wounds received in advance of Charlotte on the 26th September to raise a company of Cavalry, promising that those who furnished their own horses and equipments and served six weeks, should be considered as having served a tour of three months, the term of duty, required by law. In a few days he succeeded in raising a company of fifty-six, mostly enterprising young men, who had seen service, but found it difficult to procure arms. Only forty-five swords could be produced, and one half of them were made by the country Blacksmiths. Only fifteen had pistols, but they all had rifles. They carried the muzzle in a small boot, fastened beside the right stirrup leather, and the butt ran through the shot bag belt, so that the lock came directly under the right arm.: The British cavalry version, in a painting by George Stubbs:  Spence |
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spence
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Post by spence on Sept 6, 2020 18:33:29 GMT -7
Benjamin Franklin apparently thought some people did ride with their long arms, according to this bit I posted in some other thread:
The Pennsylvania Gazette
March 8, 1748
A Parcel of good Muskets, all well fitted with Bayonets, Belts and Cartouch Boxes, and Buff Slings to cast over the Shoulder, very useful to such as have Occasion to ride with their Arms; To be sold by B. FRANKLIN.
We need to keep in mind that 18th-century culture was a horse riding culture, in a way few of us can understand today.
Spence
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coot
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Post by coot on Sept 6, 2020 19:44:47 GMT -7
Experienced riders can easily ride using one hand. I do it more often than not. In a calvary troop, it was essential so that ones' saber or pistol could be in the other. While I have seen dragoons riding with short carbines slung over a shoulder when I lived in Bolivia, I would never consider it with a longer barrel - too easy to forget it is sticking up there waiting for a low branch to sweep you off and any gun whacking you in the back when even at a fast walk (would only be worse as you go faster) would be a royal PITA. There was a reason that calvary units and western cowboys chose short barreled rifles & carried them in a scabbard attached to the saddle. Most 18th c references seem to indicate that horse pistols were carried in "buckets" attached in front of the saddle & that long rifles were carried or rather held in one hand with the balance point across the front of the pommel. |
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Post by brokennock on Sept 6, 2020 23:31:59 GMT -7
I have a description of carrying a rifle on horseback, essentially military, probably British, but in this instance by a rebel militia unit. It is from late in the AWI. From the papers of Archibald D. Murphey: “….directed Adjutant Graham, who had now recovered of his wounds received in advance of Charlotte on the 26th September to raise a company of Cavalry, promising that those who furnished their own horses and equipments and served six weeks, should be considered as having served a tour of three months, the term of duty, required by law. In a few days he succeeded in raising a company of fifty-six, mostly enterprising young men, who had seen service, but found it difficult to procure arms. Only forty-five swords could be produced, and one half of them were made by the country Blacksmiths. Only fifteen had pistols, but they all had rifles. They carried the muzzle in a small boot, fastened beside the right stirrup leather, and the butt ran through the shot bag belt, so that the lock came directly under the right arm.: The British cavalry version, in a painting by George Stubbs: Spence Great reference Spence, thank you. It even has a reference to local blacksmiths making blades. |
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Post by artificer on Sept 11, 2020 12:37:02 GMT -7
Hi Nock,
As mentioned before, on a well trained horse, you rarely use the reins and usually only carry them together in your weak side hand with no tension on the reins most of the time. Good horses do respond well to LIGHT rein or knee pressure and even when at a full gallop. Actually your demeanor and mindset "travel straight down the reins and saddle to the horse." This is a very old saying, but as true today as it was ages ago.
However, one thing I've not seen mentioned is one of the first things one should learn about riding horses is being able to get off them FAST when they are falling. (BTW, that's why you should wear SMOOTH bottomed boots/shoes when riding so you can easily get your feet out of the stirrups. IOW, no ground gripping soles that can take longer to clear the stirrups.) If a horse falls and lands on your leg and you are on the frontier or away from help even not too far from settled areas, your squashed/broken leg may and probably did spell your death. This is as true today as it was back then in most cases.
A slung long rifle or long period fowler could/would highly interfere with getting off a horse FAST and could actually snag or somehow keep you from getting off the horse FAST in an emergency. An unslung long gun could still be gripped as you jump off or in worst case scenarios, or allow you to DROP the gun to get off the horse when you don't have much time.
Granted that plains rifles in the 19th century were not quite as long as long rifles/smoothbores, but how many times do you see the guns slung in period drawings/paintings of civilian mountain men, Native Americans and other people on horseback? Not only is an unslung gun easier to shoot off horseback, but so much easier to get off the horse with during an emergency. (Yes, I've trained horses to be able to shoot off the back of them.)
I can't say you would never have seen a civilian in our period with some kind of rope sling for very unusual situations, but for the most part, I have not seen documentation and don't expect there to be that civilians normally slung their civilian arms on horseback much, if ever. .
Gus
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Post by brokennock on Sept 11, 2020 18:09:50 GMT -7
Good points Gus. I seem to recall Benedict Arnold having more than one horse fall on him and trap him at least temporarily. Pre traitorous acts.
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Post by artificer on Sept 14, 2020 21:24:01 GMT -7
Thanks Nock,
I know we can't always use experimental archeology to reach conclusions, but horses have not changed that much since the 18th century, though there are a lot less folks today who know near as much as folks back then did about horses. Of course that's natural since we don't use horses anywhere like we used to.
Gus
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Post by Rodman on Jan 6, 2022 20:18:14 GMT -7
Good read!
Enjoyed that. I have been learning about a few of my ancestors that were apparently, “Horse People”. Some of them were a bit rough around the edges so to speak. They were however some of the first people in Texas and had an affinity for Spanish horses. This thread helps me better understanding on how they made it all work. I need to follow up on some of those reads, that Article that Spence posted was an Aha! moment! for me! 😆
I have often heard the arguments about to “not sling/or sling. I wonder though would a piece of rope or sash in the haversack be in order from time to time? We only have two hands.
I completely agree that challenging terrain and hard riding or if contact is imminent the rope or sash stays in the bag.
RM
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Post by brokennock on Jan 6, 2022 20:30:23 GMT -7
Period or modern, some rope and/or other type of cordage is always part of what I take in the woods and fields with me. Even if not carrying a pack, a few feet of para-cord or equal amount of hemp or sisal twine is in a coat or vest pocket.
An extra sash could also be used as an emergency hopus strap, sling for an injured arm, binding device for a splint, and several other things....
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Keith
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Post by Keith on Jan 7, 2022 20:59:08 GMT -7
I have written some articles on colonial travel. They may be of interest. Keith. woodsrunnersdiary.blogspot.com/search?q=TravelKeeping with the theme of survival in the New World and what you need to carry with you, I thought that I had better show you some of my research findings on Travel By Foot. I did enquire on some US sites in regard to foot travel and was informed that it did not happen! All travel was done by boat, canoe or horse. This just did not make sense to me so I kept digging. I simply could not imagine these poor people being able to afford a horse. They would have enough trouble raising enough money to purchase equipment and tools. And if I had enough money to purchase a horse, I would sooner spend it on a cow at calf and use it to carry a load. Anyway, this is some of what I have found so far. |
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Post by brokennock on Jan 8, 2022 16:18:15 GMT -7
I guess when one discusses period "travel" one should define the parameters of "travel." A 2 to 4 hour walk to town or to a different town to do business then walk back, while completely abnormal now, would seem like a reasonable "commute" then. I wouldn't call it "travel."
Moving from one county to another? Exploring new lands days, weeks, or more, away?
Headed from Boston or N.Y. to Philly' for business, message delivery, or such?
These sound like, "travel."
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