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Post by brokennock on Nov 6, 2020 8:31:23 GMT -7
Does anyone have pictures of extant containers used for carrying a personal supply of tobacco? Or good written descriptions of same?
Seems to me that if tobacco came to the individual user in plug or twist form, to be cut/shredded at time of use, the brass and german silver boxes we often see vendors list as tobacco boxes don't appear to be the tool for the job. They would seem to indicate the carriage of cut or shredded tobacco like what we buy now. Even if shredded, what about a leather or deerskin bag? Horn? Cloth bag? A bag would seem better than a box for a twist or plug.
Thanks.
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ewoaf
City-dweller
Posts: 203
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Post by ewoaf on Nov 6, 2020 11:38:21 GMT -7
Tobacco also came in carrots, plug, shag (precut), snuff, and your aforementioned twist. Twists, plug, and carrots need no container by design which leaves snuff and shag. Snuff boxes are so well documented and extantly demonstrated as to not need further explanation.
Tobacco pouches used by Natives across the board seem to consistently be described as full hide pouches made from various critters. Few exceptions like the Creek gator paw pouch in the Florida archives exist. When you read of the swanskin pouch described in Milford's, he's referring to the woolen textile and not a legit swan hide. So there's a bit of Skittles variety there but you can't go wrong with a full skin pouch. This goes for white dudes on the frontier as well documented in certain images.
As for more civilized society in the colonies, leather pouches and wallets also predominate along with more glamorous metal boxes, both hinged or not.
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Keith
City-dweller
Bushfire close but safe now. Getting some good rain.
Posts: 990 
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Post by Keith on Nov 6, 2020 19:24:36 GMT -7
 This is the copy termed the Hudson Bay tobacco tin. The one Pilgrims use as a tinderbox!!! Usually thought of as being 19th century, but look below.  This original is dated 18th century.  Another popular design that copies are made of is this 1780 tobacco tin.  Dated mid 18th century, this German tobacco box is made of brass & copper.  Early 18th century Dutch tobacco box. Keith. |
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Post by spence on Nov 6, 2020 20:58:53 GMT -7
Excellent, Keith. I stole your pictures.
I have a few mentions from the day, no pictures. Some of the tobacco containers are quite unusual, to say the least.
The Pennsylvania Gazette
June 16, 1737
Just Imported,…. brass pocket Compasses, Snuff and Tobacco Boxes, Sleeve Buttons,
The Pennsylvania Gazette
July 24, 1755
RUN away….good shoes, and a dark colour cloth coat; and has two clasp knives, a tobacco box, with flint and steel.
The Pennsylvania Gazette
September 18, 1755
Just imported…. japanned metal snuff boxes, iron tobacco boxes,
_Warren Johnson's Journal_: 1760-61, brother of Sir William Johnson, upper New York:
"Some People have an Indian's Skin for a Tobacco Pouch…"
The Pennsylvania Gazette
January 5, 1774
NICHOLAS BROOKS…. Desea and Scotch snuff; tobacco boxes;
The Pennsylvania Gazette
September 1, 1790
JOHN DRINKER, ….HAS FOR SALE….sleeve links, Steel tobacco boxes, brass ink stands, Shoe, knee and stock buckles,
_Travels Through the States of North America and the Provinces of Upper and Lower Canada, During the Years of 1795, 1796 and 1797_, by Isaac Weld, Jr.:
"The moccasins, leggings, and breech cloth constitute the whole of the dress which they wear when they enter upon a campaign, except indeed it be a girdle, from which hangs their tobacco pouch and scalping knife, &C;"
_David Thompson’s Narrative_, discussing the pelican and its use by First People, upper Canada ~early 19th:
"...it's tail feathers are used for arrows, and the pouch, when cleaned and dried, is used to keep tobacco and Bear's weed for smoking;"
_Journal of a Trapper_, Osbourne Russell 1834-43:
"A trapper's equipment... a tobacco sack with a pipe and implements for making fire,"
Hidatsa Indian Buffalo-Bird-Woman, ~1870, Missouri/Yellowstone:
"Crow-flies-high and High-back-bone carried pipes in their tobacco bags together with tobacco or some other smoking ingredient. The tobacco bag was tied to the belt on the right side."
Spence
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Post by brokennock on Nov 7, 2020 6:31:59 GMT -7
Thank you gentlemen. While Spence steals Keith's pics, I'll be stealing Spence's quotes,,,,,,
and Keith's pics.
I am most interested in the various bags and wallets. If it keep adding tons of things, wads, paper cartridges, charred punk wood, et al, I will soon sound like a Sherman tank as I walk through the woods, especially if I fall and roll down a hill. Lol.
I have a modern leather wallet for "shag" pipe tobacco, I hate it. It seems impossible to unfold to open it without spilling tobacco. I really don't see myself using a full hide for a pouch. Maybe some type of drawstring bag, or rectangular bag large enough to hold a pipe too. Any examples of leather bags sewn open at the top, but not sewn all the way to the top? Im thinking the front "flap" can be folded inward and the rear, left a little longer, can flop over the front and leave things fairly secure inside. Worn about the neck?
I'll go through Spence's quotes again and come up with something I can make or adapt.
My only interest in a metal box would be one of the ones like Keith 1st pictured. Only because it accomplishes 2 tasks, carries tobacco, and, with the magnifier provides another means to light a fire. It may be a left over from bushcraft thinking and other modern outdoor activities, but, I really don't like a unitasker.
Ewoaf, I am curious about this "swan hide" material. Are there pics of extant products made of it?
Thank you again.
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Post by paranger on Nov 7, 2020 6:40:37 GMT -7
Here is mine: made from otter for my Cherokee impression.   BTW, the pipe is an original Thames River find. |
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ewoaf
City-dweller
Posts: 203
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Post by ewoaf on Nov 7, 2020 6:57:42 GMT -7
Thank you gentlemen. I am curious about this "swan hide" material. Are there pics of extant products made of it? Thank you again. Swanskin. Plain woven woolen textile with a nap on one side. Only K&P still make it and can only be obtained from Najecki. Not worth the effort for a one-off pouch. Save the swanskin for a good waistcoat. Go with a whole hide split pouch. |
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Post by spence on Nov 7, 2020 7:18:53 GMT -7
I think a pelican pouch would look good on you, and would be a real conversation piece. They come in white and brown, I think the brown would go well with your kit.  Spence N.B. The quote function on this forum outsmarts me every time. |
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Post by hawkeyes on Nov 7, 2020 7:49:11 GMT -7
Thank you gentlemen. I am curious about this "swan hide" material. Are there pics of extant products made of it? Thank you again. Swanskin. Plain woven woolen textile with a nap on one side. Only K&P still make it and can only be obtained from Najecki. Not worth the effort for a one-off pouch. Save the swanskin for a good waistcoat. Go with a whole hide split pouch. Agreed, well documented and easy to make. One can also add various embellishments from beading to quilling with ease. However I prefer just a plainly made split pouch. |
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Post by hawkeyes on Nov 7, 2020 8:00:53 GMT -7
My very simple split pouch made from deer hide, edge beading with deer hair tin cones.  If you want a braintan look this is were a chamois would come in great for a simple project such as this. |
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Post by brokennock on Nov 8, 2020 1:27:36 GMT -7
My very simple split pouch made from deer hide, edge beading with deer hair tin cones. If you want a braintan look this is were a chamois would come in great for a simple project such as this. Hmmmmmm, (rubbing/scratching chin), that looks just like mine. (Oh, that's right, I got mine from you, lol) Seems big for just tobacco. Right now I carry a small fire kit, some cordage, and some jerky in mine. |
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Post by hawkeyes on Nov 8, 2020 4:23:13 GMT -7
My very simple split pouch made from deer hide, edge beading with deer hair tin cones. If you want a braintan look this is were a chamois would come in great for a simple project such as this. Hmmmmmm, (rubbing/scratching chin), that looks just like mine. (Oh, that's right, I got mine from you, lol) Seems big for just tobacco. Right now I carry a small fire kit, some cordage, and some jerky in mine. Now isn't that just interesting... How did that happen!? |
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Keith
City-dweller
Bushfire close but safe now. Getting some good rain.
Posts: 990
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Post by Keith on Nov 12, 2020 18:29:40 GMT -7
Excellent, Keith. I stole your pictures. I have a few mentions from the day, no pictures. Some of the tobacco containers are quite unusual, to say the least. The Pennsylvania Gazette June 16, 1737 Just Imported,…. brass pocket Compasses, Snuff and Tobacco Boxes, Sleeve Buttons, The Pennsylvania Gazette July 24, 1755 RUN away….good shoes, and a dark colour cloth coat; and has two clasp knives, a tobacco box, with flint and steel. The Pennsylvania Gazette September 18, 1755 Just imported…. japanned metal snuff boxes, iron tobacco boxes, _Warren Johnson's Journal_: 1760-61, brother of Sir William Johnson, upper New York: "Some People have an Indian's Skin for a Tobacco Pouch…" The Pennsylvania Gazette January 5, 1774 NICHOLAS BROOKS…. Desea and Scotch snuff; tobacco boxes; The Pennsylvania Gazette September 1, 1790 JOHN DRINKER, ….HAS FOR SALE….sleeve links, Steel tobacco boxes, brass ink stands, Shoe, knee and stock buckles, _Travels Through the States of North America and the Provinces of Upper and Lower Canada, During the Years of 1795, 1796 and 1797_, by Isaac Weld, Jr.: "The moccasins, leggings, and breech cloth constitute the whole of the dress which they wear when they enter upon a campaign, except indeed it be a girdle, from which hangs their tobacco pouch and scalping knife, &C;" _David Thompson’s Narrative_, discussing the pelican and its use by First People, upper Canada ~early 19th: "...it's tail feathers are used for arrows, and the pouch, when cleaned and dried, is used to keep tobacco and Bear's weed for smoking;" _Journal of a Trapper_, Osbourne Russell 1834-43: "A trapper's equipment... a tobacco sack with a pipe and implements for making fire," Hidatsa Indian Buffalo-Bird-Woman, ~1870, Missouri/Yellowstone: "Crow-flies-high and High-back-bone carried pipes in their tobacco bags together with tobacco or some other smoking ingredient. The tobacco bag was tied to the belt on the right side." Spence That's all right mate, I stole your links  Thank you Spence. Keith. |
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Post by brokennock on Nov 14, 2020 0:54:14 GMT -7
A regular den of thieves, lol.
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