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Post by paranger on Mar 7, 2021 9:38:35 GMT -7
3.bp.blogspot.com/-lW2IMVkKWWk/VyPNet8rBkI/AAAAAAABnIs/UGPPDV34TEMYSfQXrHGsC6ONqIjEfoqUACLcB/s1600/9%2B-%2B00165.jpgThis image is a portrait of Sir Edward Hales, Baronet of Hales Place, Hockington, Kent, by Phillippe Mercier c. 1744 housed at the Yale Center of British Art. For my purposes, I am focused on the shot pouch hanging from a branch to the left of the portrait. I have been researching period English sporting gentleman's shot and game bags with the intention of recreating one. This portrait in particular caught my attention, as it not only offers good detail with precise dating and provenance, but it also illustrates a few features that defy the conventional wisdom regarding 18th century shot pouches. First, notice that the pouch is attached to the strap with the use of brass rings (the near one is partially visible), a feature generally associated with 19th century continental game bags. Similarly, note that the strap adjusts via what certainly appears to be an iron roller buckle. I hadn't realized that roller buckles existed that early, but further research confirms that they were apparently used (particularly for horse tack) as early as Roman times. Curiously, the strap does not show a "keeper," leaving the bitter end of the adjustable strap hanging freely, since the buckle is not of the double or center bar type. The bag displays a decorative red welting which highlights the fact that this bag is either gusseted or (as I believe) a double pouch. Finally, though difficult to tell, the mottled brown face of the pouch suggests the possibility of "hair on" construction.
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Post by brokennock on Mar 7, 2021 12:40:17 GMT -7
Great pic. I have it already in my meager collection.
I am going to disagree on 1 thing. To my eyes (admittedly not the best lately) I am not seeing a shoulder strap mounted to a brass ring. I am seeing a waist belt through a loose belt loop on the back of the pouch. Possibly the belt loop has stretched from the bag and belt being hung that way?
I agree on the double pouch. One thing that I can't quite make out clearly but I can't convince myself isn't as I am seeing it, that defies commonly accepted bag design time lines. It looks like a double pouch to me. Look closely at the trim of the edge.
We are so often told that double pouches were generally later in the period, and admittedly I can't say I have seen any others in paintings or mention. I see two lines of that trim separating a little below the flap. Could be wrong....
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Post by spence on Mar 7, 2021 13:02:29 GMT -7
Excellent, you don't find paintings with that much detail very often. I agree that it's a double pouch, really glad to see that. I think you can see that it's possible the strap is attached to the pouch by a brass ring in this enlarged clipping. It doesn't seem to end at the ring, though, may run across the back of the pouch. Is it possible the strap is simply run through two rings and the pouch is able to slide back and forth on it? That would be different. I lightened it a bit, too, and that seems to make it obvious the exterior is patterned, probably hair on. IMHO  Thank you, well found. Spence |
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Post by paranger on Mar 7, 2021 14:29:41 GMT -7
Nock and Spence: good observations. I think both a belt with sewn-on loops and a continuous strap threaded through brass rings are distinct possibilities that I hadn't considered.
Spence, your finessing of the image helps - thanks.
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Post by spence on Mar 7, 2021 17:51:01 GMT -7
The gentleman's "leggings" are unique. In earlier days it was common for men to wear their above-the-knee stockings outside the breeches from the knee up, and that's what I thought these were at first look. They aren't stockings, though, they are open at the bottom. They seem to be cinched in tightly to the leg just below the breeches, maybe by garters we can't see?
Notice the very early style waistcoat down to mid-thigh, and the knee-length frock/coat. Square brass shoe buckles peeking out, squared off pointy-toed shoes.
What a beautiful gun, heavy butt stock, very long barrel round from breech to muzzle, well tapered with maybe two wedding bands. It might be what they called a double, false or draw breech. I wish such barrels were available today.
Spence
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Post by brokennock on Mar 7, 2021 23:16:38 GMT -7
I am looking at the angle the strap approaches the back of the bag and enters the loop/ring on the near side, and somewhat the angle it departs on the far side (though not as clear) and comparing it to how my belt bag hangs where it is kept in my room and to my shoulder bags as they hang.
Also observe the location of the buckle and far side adjustment holes of the belt/strap and visualize how these would be positioned on your body as they are. How would they ride if adjusted smaller?
This is why I'm thinking belt bag.
Of course the belt/strap looks quite large compared to the individual. Could it be an inherited belt and bag being worn over the shoulder?
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Post by hawkeyes on Mar 8, 2021 5:12:14 GMT -7
This is a great find, no need to chime in besides that, rest is taken care of! Excellent.
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ewoaf
City-dweller
Posts: 203
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Post by ewoaf on Mar 8, 2021 6:44:11 GMT -7
Good eye. It's definitely a shoulder strap as it's too long for a belt. Definitely a piped double pouch. I've got one just like it. Not sure you've sold me on the rings though.
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Post by spence on Mar 8, 2021 8:14:30 GMT -7
Yeah, the rings are a maybe-so. Also, I can't tell if whatever is happening to the right strap is actually the strap or is the back of the pouch visible because it is folded forward. I can't see it as a belt bag, strap is far too long. I'm glad to see such an early double pouch because I've been using one for a long time which works very well, and I've never been confident it is PC. Mine is of pigskin and not so fancy, but it's my favorite of several I use.  Spence |
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Post by paranger on Mar 8, 2021 8:28:29 GMT -7
Yeah, the rings are a maybe-so. Also, I can't tell if whatever is happening to the right strap is actually the strap or is the back of the pouch visible because it is folded forward. I can't see it as a belt bag, strap is far too long. I'm glad to see such an early double pouch because I've been using one for a long time which works very well, and I've never been confident it is PC. Mine is of pigskin and not so fancy, but it's my favorite of several I use. Spence That's a fine rig, Spence. I can see why you like it. Yes, I was excited to find an early ENGLISH double pouch. Most of the doubles I have seen are early 19th c. American and with a more Germanic influence. I still lean toward the brass ring theory, and agree that the belt pictured is too long to have been designed for waist carriage- at least by the gentleman pictured. I, too, suspect that what we are seeing on the far side of the pouch is the concave back of the pouch rather than the far strap, but it is hard to say for certain. |
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Post by Black Hand on Mar 8, 2021 18:08:27 GMT -7
The putative ring appears to be only on one side. As such, I'd lean on the side of "not a ring", rather an artefact of perspective. Tough to say for certain....
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Post by spence on Mar 8, 2021 18:28:00 GMT -7
Occam's razor says it is simply sewn to the back of the bag as usual.  Spence |
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Post by paranger on Mar 12, 2021 8:34:57 GMT -7
So I have been mulling over what everyone has said and staring (and staring...and staring...) at this image, and I am going to make one more pitch for the possibility of brass ring attachment points.
First off, let us agree that we are only able to see the near strap attachment point. The far strap attachment is obscured - either by the concavity of the pouch back or the strap itself (or perhaps both). So, that's no help.
Focusing on the near strap, the apparent "air gap" between the strap and the bag body suggests to me a ring, though it's flattened appearance suggests perhaps a "D" ring vice an "O" ring. The tan/ochre color in contrast to the bright silver strap buckle suggests to me brass.
Perhaps the bigger factor that occurs to me beyond an admittedly inconclusive image is contextual. Looking through a previous thread in which the subject of rings came up, Artificer mentioned that they certainly existed and were routinely used in horse tack. That reminded me that the roller buckle on the strap - another article which defies the common wisdom for use on 18th century bags - is another item that normally belonged to the realm of horse tack.
Then I got to thinking: most of the shot pouches we see, discuss, and recreate are made for - and usually by - users of the lower and middling classes of the socioeconomic strata here in America. The gentry - particularly in Europe - would have purchased their kit from skilled guild-trained and regulated professional artisans - likely the same ones who fulfilled their equestrian requirements: saddlers, harness makers, etc.
Furthermore, the use of rings is often associated with German bags, which also would have been made by professional harness makers or saddlers for an aristocratic clientele, as no one else was permitted to hunt (or even own firearms) in that manorial society.
In summation, is it surprising that a harnessmaker would use the hardware and construction techniques with which he was accustomed in producing an item which was likely a sideline at best?
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Post by Black Hand on Mar 12, 2021 19:10:11 GMT -7
Not an unreasonable approach...
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Post by artificer on Apr 6, 2021 8:56:28 GMT -7
There is no doubt to Sir Edward's affluence, as he is wearing an absolute FORTUNE of gold lace and tassels on his coat, waist coat and even the trim on his cocked hat!!! The buckskin gauntlets speak to his wealth as well.
As to the Shot Pouch. I'm having trouble with the shoulder belt having been made by a Master Saddler or Harness Maker, in part because of how poorly designed and high up the maker mounted the roller buckle. The darn thing looks like it would ride very close to the neck. With all the gold lace Sir Edward is wearing, that buckle would almost have to go on his back side, so as not to wear the lace on his coat. I would also expect to see either a sliding loop or a fixed loop on it. Finally the shoulder belt itself seems to be completely devoid of even the most basic border lines or any kind of decoration as well, which I would expect to see on a Shot Pouch bespoke made for such an affluent customer? Could these things have been a problem with the Artist's impression when he painted it?
I'm wondering if the Roller Buckle (if that is what it is, though I don't discount it out of hand) is highly polished steel or perhaps made of silver?
I'm open to the possibility of the shoulder belt being attached to brass rings of some sort, especially because the buckle seems to be a roller belt buckle. This with the acknowledgement of my personal bias against rings on shot pouches, due to the fact I have an extremely difficult time seeing their usefulness. Still, those who had the money could indulge in things that were not all that useful and especially if made the shot pouch appear more expensive.
Love the Fowling Gun. Did anyone else notice the Thumb Piece on the wrist?
Gus
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