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Post by hawkeyes on Jun 19, 2021 8:34:47 GMT -7
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Post by hawkeyes on Jun 19, 2021 13:13:09 GMT -7
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Post by paranger on Jun 19, 2021 15:26:43 GMT -7
Great looking bows, Hawkeyes! I have a seasoned osage stave calling my name this summer if I can ever get around to it!
I would love to hear more about making cane arrows, too!
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Post by hawkeyes on Jun 19, 2021 16:20:14 GMT -7
Great looking bows, Hawkeyes! I have a seasoned osage stave calling my name this summer if I can ever get around to it! I would love to hear more about making cane arrows, too! Thank you! I need more in a hurry... patience is the key and I've got a year to wait for my fresh staves to cure... Cane is fabulous, very easy to work. I'll get a topic going when I start the process of checking spine weight and straightening. I tried the hickory board bow and must say... not a fan... VERY hard to dictate quality on milled lumber. Had a few runouts that unfortunately ran into the back which I figured would potentially be a problem and it was. Got the bow braced and began to tiller and she snapped right near a runout spot. With minimal issues on a board bow I'd think fire hardening the back would likely be worthwhile. Have about six other pieces to have a go at.
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Post by brokennock on Jun 19, 2021 18:54:38 GMT -7
Great job. Looking forward to your posts on arrows.
I've had mostly good luck with board bows. Did have to rawhide back one of them. Mostly used ipe, or Brazilian iron wood, for board bows. The only problem there is that the wood is so dense and heavy, specific gravity is higher than water, that limb tips need to be very, very, tiny or handshock becomes noticeable.
If I ever get back to building bows I want to build a recreation of the "turtle bow."
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Post by Sicilianhunter on Jun 21, 2021 3:52:32 GMT -7
Hawk, Tell us about chasing a growth ring... BTW, what book was the illustration from ? This guy has Great videos on NA shooting style :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeTGp7FX7LA&t=18s
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Post by hawkeyes on Jun 21, 2021 5:13:52 GMT -7
Hawk, Tell us about chasing a growth ring... BTW, what book was the illustration from ? This guy has Great videos on NA shooting style :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeTGp7FX7LA&t=18s Its rather simple, pick a single growth ring (closest one you can get to) and follow it the entire length of a stave. Osage has a tendency to raise splinters along the back when you fail to do so, which creats weaks sots prone to failure. It's something that can't really be described without actually seeing it. When you plunge into a new ring to follow you can immediately tell. From there you chase it the entire length of the back. Another feature of oasage is knots, within reason they cause no issue. However you have to be careful when ring chasing not to slice right through them, rather you meticulously work around them, getting down to the ring you want with patience. Osage also really isn't that hard to work IMO, personally I feel that negative allure comes from people unfamiliar with its tendency, and working a stave incorrectly. I NEVER let a power tool touch a stave. I will only use hand tools, this allows greater control in removing wood along the grain naturally. Forced wood removal will usually end in a failure, maybe not today, maybe not a week... Yet worked incorrectly it will fail, period. I've often heard from people wooden bows have an expiration date... IMO that's bogus. If you build a bow right (and you'll know it) that bow should never break outside of something beyond your absolute control. I shoot my bows almost three times a week, walk on the deck and just sling sticks. I'm personally more skilled with my bows than my rifles because I shoot them more! So in a nut shell chasing a ring is really as it sounds, pick a single ring, closest ring to the top of the stave and follow it down. There are obviously more little variables from drawknife edges, were you start in the stave from the middle verus the tips and so on... however one thing remains consistent across the board, you absolutely have to get down to a single ring.
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Post by hawkeyes on Jun 21, 2021 5:48:59 GMT -7
Also must say something I feel is extremely important and anyone who builds primitive bows needs to understand... There is a difference between traditional bows and primitive bows.
With primitive bows we are working a natural material with individual character that has to be coaxed into becoming a bow with patience. You put a little of yourself into the wood, you become aware of what it wants and how it wants worked. You develop a relationship of sorts with it.
Traditional laminate bows and the like... No emotion, no character, no personality... The aim is repeatable results and constant consistency which is fine for many but not me and not for those who understand primitive archery, think they would agree, or could be dead wrong. Personally I have nothing to do with modern archery because to me, it requires no true skill to be successful and I've proven that with many "big time bow hunters" I work with on a daily basis. Put a primitive bow in their hands and watch them slither away when their pride takes a tumble...
With the primitive bow there is often an old style of shooting that needs development and that is the quick acquisition of your target and the release of an arrow quickly. Hence the shorter draw lengths and poundage. This is another area that is misunderstood by many. While yes the power of the bow is important for a humane kill its not of all importance. If you build a 65-70lb+ plus primitive bow you just won't be able to control it nor have consistency. A skilled bowyer with a 40lb bow and quality crafted arrows, and even with stone points can swiftly dispatch any game he needs accurately and reliably.
Obviously different cultures across the world have various designs and what not. The English warbow comes to mind often, which is a completely different animal to our NA bows. I do feel much in terms of the traditional archery design today comes from the English bow, which in it's own right is a phenomenal design. I personally own an English yew warbow and it's a powerful weapon indeed.
I guess in closing my main point here is... ALLOW THINGS TO HAPPEN NATURALLY. Understand you are working a material that is natural and was once alive. Enjoy the experience and what the wood teaches you, connect with it, learn, watch and listen. Clear your mind of what "Traditional Archers" tell you how and what it should be. Take pride in crafting your bow, even if it fails, do it again, and again... Understand that natural wood has limits, don't push it and it'll return the gratitude with each shot. Lastly understand the primitive side of archery offers you something you absolutely will not find anywhere else, embrace it and enjoy it!
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Post by brokennock on Jun 21, 2021 14:16:44 GMT -7
Hawk, Tell us about chasing a growth ring... BTW, what book was the illustration from ? This guy has Great videos on NA shooting style :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeTGp7FX7LA&t=18s What Hawkeyes left out is that with Osage you are chasing a growth ring because you are using heartwood for your bow. Unlike whitewoods like hickory which can have the 1st ring below the inner bark be a perfectly safe back, Osage sapwood is no good for a bow. So, you are removing all the sapwood then following a heartwood growth ring the entire length of the back of the stave. This wood while incredibly strong if treated and worked properly is intolerant of violations of that back surface. I've seen heinously violated backs on hickory bows and they have held together. In fact the only hickory bows I have broken failed in compression on the belly. Elm I haven't broken, but I've only made two as it is a royal pain to split down into staves. I would like to make one more. Osage I think is more tolerant of humidity I think, and is obviously prettier than whitewoods. The layer between the good growth rings is fairly porous so it isn't as hard as one might think to isolate that good growth ring,,,, with patience around knots and other bits of "character."
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Post by brokennock on Jun 21, 2021 14:25:39 GMT -7
....Hence the shorter draw lengths and poundage. This is another area that is misunderstood by many. While yes the power of the bow is important for a humane kill its not of all importance. If you build a 65-70lb+ plus primitive bow you just won't be able to control it nor have consistency. A skilled bowyer with a 40lb bow and quality crafted arrows, and even with stone points can swiftly dispatch any game he needs accurately and reliably.... Very true. This tackle is vastly underestimated and underrated. The guy who taught me bow building and some other primitive skills and I went hunting together once. He was hunting completely primitive gear, cane or rose shoot arrows with wild turkey and goose feather and stone points he made himself. We sat down in some tall weeds for a "head shed," sitting flat on our butts with legs crossed. A doe walked almost right up to us. He lifted his bow off his lap only chest high, drew to his chest and let fly. Complete pass through, both lungs, short blood trail. We measured the draw to hi chest in that position later and checked the draw weight at that length,,,, only about 37# draw with a reduced "power stroke" due to the reduced draw length.
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Post by hawkeyes on Jun 21, 2021 14:33:01 GMT -7
Hawk, Tell us about chasing a growth ring... BTW, what book was the illustration from ? This guy has Great videos on NA shooting style :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeTGp7FX7LA&t=18s What Hawkeyes left out is that with Osage you are chasing a growth ring because you are using heartwood for your bow. Unlike whitewoods like hickory which can have the 1st ring below the inner bark be a perfectly safe back, Osage sapwood is no good for a bow. So, you are removing all the sapwood then following a heartwood growth ring the entire length of the back of the stave. This wood while incredibly strong if treated and worked properly is intolerant of violations of that back surface. I've seen heinously violated backs on hickory bows and they have held together. In fact the only hickory bows I have broken failed in compression on the belly. Elm I haven't broken, but I've only made two as it is a royal pain to split down into staves. I would like to make one more. Osage I think is more tolerant of humidity I think, and is obviously prettier than whitewoods. The layer between the good growth rings is fairly porous so it isn't as hard as one might think to isolate that good growth ring,,,, with patience around knots and other bits of "character." Yes that is a big one often overlooked and I did leave it out as I got overwhelmed with my ramblings. Concerning humidity I would have to agree with that. For me its proven vary stable in the hot and humid Ohio summers. Elm is a venture I haven't taken on, due to the exact reason you brought up. There are a few more native woods I want to try but the nature of osage and hickory alone really just don't warrant the time spent with other woods. I do have some nice maple I ripped with the anticipation ofbeing board bows and rawhide backed but that really is about it. I currently have four hickory and three osage staves curing. The time lapse will get me back at the board bow venture. I can see it being a worthwhile project, just have to nail it on my end.
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Post by brokennock on Jun 21, 2021 15:04:16 GMT -7
If I ever get back to bow building the turtle bow is high on my list. Then a couple things I've never done. A linen backed whitewood bow and a bamboo backed bow. I've done the Sudbury and would do that again. Normally I just made a simple flat bow style with limb edges parallel for about 2/3rds theory length then tapering to the tips, with a stiff handle. I'd like to try a bend through the handle bow that constantly tapers all the way to pointed tips with thread wraps to create the shoulders to hold the bow string.
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Post by Sicilianhunter on Jun 22, 2021 4:03:43 GMT -7
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Post by brokennock on Jun 22, 2021 8:02:18 GMT -7
Pretty accurate. To me, when he shows the end of the stave showing all the rings, it looks like he received it with no sapwood. He just needs to choose and reveal a good ring of heartwood.
See if you can get a copy, at least on loan, of, "The Traditional Bowyer's Bible, Vol.1"
That book will make so many things make sense.
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Post by hawkeyes on Jun 22, 2021 11:58:17 GMT -7
See if you can get a copy, at least on loan, of, "The Traditional Bowyer's Bible, Vol.1" That book will make so many things make sense. Still haven't been able to procure a copy...
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