|
|
Post by artificer on Oct 10, 2021 1:19:59 GMT -7
when pouring powder over ball into hand?
Folks, I'm sort of working through a few things that did and will affect 18th century rifle accuracy. I seem to recall someone did make such a chart, but can't find it. If anyone knows where this information was posted or has the information, I would be very grateful for it.
Gus
|
|
|
|
Post by brokennock on Oct 10, 2021 8:02:45 GMT -7
What did the chart include?
Average amount of powder cover a given size ball?
Would not how much one cups one's palm effect how much powder this takes?
If one person puts a .440 ball in the center of their palm, and keeps their palm flat, it will take more powder to cover the ball than if someone takes the same ball and cups their palm even slightly.
|
|
|
|
Post by artificer on Oct 10, 2021 8:38:49 GMT -7
What did the chart include? Average amount of powder cover a given size ball? Would not how much one cups one's palm effect how much powder this takes? If one person puts a .440 ball in the center of their palm, and keeps their palm flat, it will take more powder to cover the ball than if someone takes the same ball and cups their palm even slightly. GREAT question, Nock, That's part of what I'm trying to find out, as well; I.E. whether it was done in a cupped or open palm. The only original documentation I have on doing it is the following: James Audubon, c1810, describing his host preparing to go raccoon hunting: "… He blows through his rifle to ascertain that it is clear, examines his flint, and thrusts a feather into the touch-hole. To a leathern bag swung at his side is attached a powder-horn; his sheath-knife is there also; below hangs a narrow strip of homespun linen. He takes from his bag a bullet, pulls with his teeth the wooden stopper from his powder-horn, lays the ball in one hand, and with the other pours the powder upon it until it is just overtopped. Raising the horn to his mouth, he again closes it with the stopper, and restores it to its place. He introduces the powder into the tube; springs the box of his gun, greases the "patch" over with some melted tallow, or damps it; then places it on the honey-combed muzzle of his piece. The bullet is placed on the patch over the bore, and pressed with the handle of the knife, which now trims the edge of the linen. The elastic hickory rod, held with both hands, smoothly pushes the ball to its bed; once, twice, thrice has it rebounded. The rifle leaps as it were into the hunters arms, the feather is drawn from the touch-hole, the powder fills the pan, which is closed. “Now I’m ready,” cries the woodsman…. Journals, Vol. 2, (1972 reprint), page 492. Sorry my answer is a bit succinct, but I'm recovering from herniated aorta implant surgery and the arthritis in my fingers are really acting up today. Gus |
|
|
|
Post by spence on Oct 10, 2021 9:08:57 GMT -7
I seem to recall seeing such a chart somewhere, but I don't recall where, and I didn't collect it.
I have to say I wouldn't feel confident in the information from such a chart. My impression is that the amount of powder would be so variable between individuals that it would not be possible to transfer the results from one person to another. The size of hands and the method of holding them is so variable when covering the ball that I seriously doubt the charge I would get for any one caliber would be meaningful to you. I have tried it, and I think it would work for an individual, but even there only because black powder is so tolerant of variation in charge. I found I was doing very well if I could duplicate charges within 10 grains.
If you find the chart, please let us know, especially if the method of constructing it is described.
I have some period references to its being used, so they did do it. They usually mentioned it as being a method used by the 'backwoodsmen'.
Spence
|
|
|
|
Post by spence on Oct 10, 2021 9:14:35 GMT -7
Artificer said: "The only original documentation I have on doing it is the following:
James Audubon, c1810, describing his host preparing to go raccoon hunting:"
Another one for your records:
A handbook for riflemen; containing the first principles of military discipline, founded on rational method, intended to explain in a familiar and practical manner, the discipline and duties of rifle corps: conformable to the system established for the United States military force, and the latest improvements in the modern art of war, by William Duane, 1812
"The back woods men of the western frontier, place the ball in the palm of their left hand, and cupping the hand as much as possible, cover the ball with powder, and make that their charge."
Spence
|
|
|
|
Post by artificer on Oct 10, 2021 9:33:07 GMT -7
Artificer said: "The only original documentation I have on doing it is the following: James Audubon, c1810, describing his host preparing to go raccoon hunting:" Another one for your records: A handbook for riflemen; containing the first principles of military discipline, founded on rational method, intended to explain in a familiar and practical manner, the discipline and duties of rifle corps: conformable to the system established for the United States military force, and the latest improvements in the modern art of war, by William Duane, 1812 "The back woods men of the western frontier, place the ball in the palm of their left hand, and cupping the hand as much as possible, cover the ball with powder, and make that their charge." Spence Spence, Thank you for the additional quote and the information from you attempting it. I was hoping to "hear" from you on this one. The "chart" we remember may have been on the other forum. I'm trying to figure out how they came up with the best loads for their rifles in the 18th century. I know it is normally said they found the best volume charge and then carved or used a measure for that load, BUT that doesn't explain HOW they did it. I'm asking about pouring powder over the ball charges to see if they are close to what we might today consider to be a "starting load" for load development OR if that may have been the "common" way of finding the best charge of powder? I'm also trying to figure out what they would have considered a "single" charge that they "doubled" when trying to shoot at longer ranges. Gus |
|
|
|
Post by brokennock on Oct 10, 2021 9:46:52 GMT -7
While this method would seem viable for an individual as long as that individual did things the same way every time,, their results would not seem to be transferable to someone else for the reasons stated in posts above.
However, if we are looking for things that effect accuracy in the period, and accuracy from shot to shot being dependant on consistency, we have another issue.
Another variable that would be a factor with this method is powder loss. How does one retrieve the ball from the pile of powder before "introducing it," to the muzzle of his gun? How much powder sticks to the hand from shot to shot?
I do seem to recall that chart showing a correlation between volumetric measures of current effective loads and the amount of powder it took to cover the ball.
Gus, sorry to hear of your surgery and health troubles. Glad you came through the operation okay. Please heal well.
|
|
|
|
Post by brokennock on Oct 10, 2021 9:49:33 GMT -7
I do note that Spence's quote states, "cupping the hand as much as possible,"
|
|
|
|
Post by Black Hand on Oct 10, 2021 12:43:23 GMT -7
"cupping the hand as much as possible," Even that method could lead to widely variable loads.. |
|
|
|
Post by brokennock on Oct 11, 2021 6:32:48 GMT -7
"cupping the hand as much as possible," Even that method could lead to widely variable loads.. Completely agree. |
|
|
|
Post by brokennock on Oct 11, 2021 6:39:39 GMT -7
I had suggested once to another forum member who was looking for ideas for a woodswalk, a powder charge consistency challenge.
Consistency of load being needed for accuracy from shot to shot..
I suggested a side challenge of weighing the competitor's powder charge, poured from the horn or flask they hunt with/shoot the trail walk with, into the powder measure/charger they use for such activities, and weighing it with a powder scale. Three charge average. Person with the smallest deviation "wins."
Might be interesting if a few of us did that with this cover the ball method.
|
|
|
|
Post by artificer on Oct 12, 2021 1:41:22 GMT -7
In the James Audubon, c1810 quote, I think it should be noted the hunter was loading for racoon hunting. Now, I'm not sure if they hunted Coon at night, but when I did a LOT of Coon hunting back in the late 1960's/early 1970's and we did all our hunting at night, the distance from our pistols to the Coon was never more than say 20 yards or so and often less than that. If that hunter was firing at similar short ranges, it may not have needed such a consistent volume of powder? I don't know. If he did hunt at night, it may have been "good enough" and easier to get a somewhat consistent powder charge using the cupped hand method rather than using a measure? I admit I'm doing a lot of guessing here with no clear answers.
Part of the reason I'm looking for approximate powder charges using the "pour the powder over the ball method" is to see how that volume would compare with loads we often use today.
Gus
|
|
|
|
Post by artificer on Oct 12, 2021 23:20:43 GMT -7
I seem to recall seeing such a chart somewhere, but I don't recall where, and I didn't collect it. I have to say I wouldn't feel confident in the information from such a chart. My impression is that the amount of powder would be so variable between individuals that it would not be possible to transfer the results from one person to another. The size of hands and the method of holding them is so variable when covering the ball that I seriously doubt the charge I would get for any one caliber would be meaningful to you. I have tried it, and I think it would work for an individual, but even there only because black powder is so tolerant of variation in charge. I found I was doing very well if I could duplicate charges within 10 grains. If you find the chart, please let us know, especially if the method of constructing it is described. I have some period references to its being used, so they did do it. They usually mentioned it as being a method used by the 'backwoodsmen'. Spence Hi Spence, This from Notchy Bob on the other forum: "Ned Roberts wrote, "The pioneer rule for ascertaining the correct charge of powder for a round ball rifle was: place a ball in the palm of the hand and pour out from the powder-horn enough powder to completely cover the ball." He provided a very limited chart of average charges obtained this way: 150 balls per pound, 31 caliber, 25 grains weight of powder 100 balls per pound, 36 caliber, 40 grains weight of powder 56 balls per pound, 44 caliber, 60 grains weight of powder 18 balls per pound, 60 caliber, 85 grains weight of powder" Will have to dig out my copy of the book and see if other calibers/weights are listed. Gus |
|
|
|
Post by brokennock on Oct 13, 2021 6:48:10 GMT -7
I think that must have been the data I saw years ago. It does seem roughly in line for what I have used for a .440 and .60 size balls.
|
|
