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Post by brokennock on Oct 13, 2021 6:49:39 GMT -7
For anyone who regularly shoots roundball from their smoothbore using tow wadding.
How much of it do you carry when hunting or trekking? How about to a range session?
How do you carry it?
Lubed? How?
I took a few shots with my Fusil des Chase the other day using just faux-tow (shredded up 4" lengths of sisal rope) as I seek a good load for this gun that is more historically correct than patched ball. I've used this wadding for shot loads before so had an idea of how much material is needed.
I wind up with a ball of material slightly larger than my lead ball (I can use slightly smaller for the one over the ball) and rubbed this around in my container of lube then kind of massaged it into the mass of fiber. I can then form this into a ball again. Am thinking a small leather bag of these prelubed balls might be the ticket. But, it is still a lot of material and time spent prepping it, especially for a range session.
How would they have done it during colonial times? Any references? What are your experiences and answers to the above?
Thanks,
Dave
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Post by spence on Oct 13, 2021 10:35:03 GMT -7
brokennock, I use my double pouch when shooting my smoothbore with tow, and put a small leather bag about 6"x3" filled with tow in the back pouch. I cut it as I need it, have never made balls beforehand. I have also never lubricated the tow. My area is not prone to forest fires, and I've never found smoldering tow, but I understand that might be appropriate in some areas. Here's a typical amount of tow I use, the larger over powder, the smaller over shot.  My rule of thumb is to use enough so that when rammed down well it makes a wad 3/4" or so over powder, less over shot. When I first started trying tow I found that my shots tended to string up and down as though from variations in velocity. I thought that was probably caused by gasses escaping through the porous tow, but differently on every shot. Writing in 1789 Thomas Page described tow wadding as "uncertain", and I imagine that was what he was experiencing. I decided to try putting a barrier over the powder and under the tow, and that made a world of difference. Groups tightened up nicely, and the recoil increased perceptibly. I suspect that was what Markham was advising in his poem Pteryplegia when he said "Search for tow, and some old saddle pierce, No wadding lies so close or drive so fierce." Leather wads punched from an old saddle would form a nice barrier under tow. I have found accuracy with a roundball in my smoothbores to be quite good with a barrier. I haven't tried leather, but brown paper ala Thomas Page and modern punched thin overshot wads do very well. A couple with brown paper.   I"ve never found a description of the details of their loading with tow from the period, only 3-4 items that say they did it. Spence |
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Post by brokennock on Oct 13, 2021 17:55:44 GMT -7
Thank you Spence.
I've read your accounts of the folded paper before and it was my next step. Actually still intend to try it with this gun.
I did some more shooting today. Based on the results of some tests the last two times out with this gun and some deductive reasoning, I think I've got some reasoning established. For whatever reason, this gun does not like anything stiff between powder and ball.
Did not like a nitro card on the powder below any type of lubed wad, I thought improving the gas seal with one would help things. A thin card shot better, but, still not with the consistency I an looking for. Tried 3f and 2f loads from 65 to 80 grains, by volume, in 5 grain increments. Removing the thin card and just using my lubed felt wad saw some improvement. 80 grains 2f with faux-tow was better still, but ran out of time for more than a couple shots.
For a few reasons I'd like to keep the load below 80 grains. And, with Goex closing, I'd like to use 3f as I have more of it. I was initially hoping to reduce felt recoil by using 2f.
Today I got very good results with 70 grains 3f and just a lubed felt wad under the ball and a thin card on top. Then I ran out of the small amount of 3f I had with me. And, I was noticing while loading that without the card I was getting a crusty area about 7 inches from the muzzle that was 4 or 5 inches long, then things smoothed out again.
I tried 75 grains 2f, with lubed faux-tow under and over......
Vast improvement. Almost certain it is what I am looking for, despite being a 2f load. This was however with a somewhat fouled bore. When I next get to the range, if the 1st shot with this load from a clean cold barrel is to pint of aim,,, I think it will be my load moving forward.
Will still try the paper too. Thinking maybe it will increase gas seal, though I think my oil and beeswax lube worked into the wad of rope fibers helps with this seal. I'm thinking the paper is flexible enough not to cause whatever problems the cards were causing.
Maybe Hawkeyes will be kind enough to post the 2 pics I sent him today of targets.
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Post by spence on Oct 13, 2021 20:15:35 GMT -7
It's strange to me that stiff wads over the powder would cause problems. My very first roundball load in a smoothbore was powder, 1/8" hard card, 1/2" lubricated fiber wad and then patched round ball. After 30 years that is still my go-to load for best accuracy with all my smoothbores, and I've tried a lot of other combinations.
Spence
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Post by artificer on Oct 14, 2021 0:55:13 GMT -7
It's strange to me that stiff wads over the powder would cause problems. My very first roundball load in a smoothbore was powder, 1/8" hard card, 1/2" lubricated fiber wad and then patched round ball. After 30 years that is still my go-to load for best accuracy with all my smoothbores, and I've tried a lot of other combinations. Spence I sure wish I had thought of using the hard card over the powder, then a lubed fiber wad before the patched ball years ago when I shot round ball out of my Brown Bess Carbine in competition. May I ask what you use to lube the fiber wads and how you do it? Gus |
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Post by brokennock on Oct 14, 2021 1:20:18 GMT -7
It's strange to me that stiff wads over the powder would cause problems. My very first roundball load in a smoothbore was powder, 1/8" hard card, 1/2" lubricated fiber wad and then patched round ball. After 30 years that is still my go-to load for best accuracy with all my smoothbores, and I've tried a lot of other combinations. Spence It is strange to me as well. My smoothrifle loves a thin card, lubed felt wad, then the ball over powder. Shoots this better than a patched ball. It is also just a theory in my head based on the best loads so far, without a patch, being either felt wad or faux-tow with no card underneath. Paper under lubed wad is still on the table to try. Also might try a thin card and double lubed felt wads. |
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Post by brokennock on Oct 14, 2021 1:23:37 GMT -7
....May I ask what you use to lube the fiber wads and how you do it? Gus When I mentioned fibers I was referring to the fibers of shredded sisal rope that I call faux-tow, not to a fiber cushion wad as we use in the Skychief load. |
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Post by hawkeyes on Oct 14, 2021 4:32:38 GMT -7
Nock as requested  I myself thoroughly enjoy shooting a tow wad and ball. Honestly never fiddle with cards, wads and the like. Good ole fashion tow usually. However, nock was gracious enough to send me a supply of various wads and cards for load development in my .62 and they obviously do very well for shot in my particular rifle gun. |
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Post by spence on Oct 14, 2021 6:50:53 GMT -7
Gus, the wads I use are from Circle Fly, 1/2". I use my standard mix of lard and beeswax to lube them. I simply melt a little, roll the wads in it briefly, then set them on paper towels to cool and drain. I adjust the viscosity of my lube by altering the ratio of lard to beeswax to make a thicker summer weight lube and a thinner winter weight one. The load has served me well. 75 yards...  100 yards...  Spence |
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Post by artificer on Oct 14, 2021 9:57:51 GMT -7
Spence,
Thank you! BTW, those are FINE groups for a smoothbore with a ball!!
BTW, may I also pick your brain for the lard to beeswax ratios for summer and winter?
Gus
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Post by spence on Oct 14, 2021 11:14:54 GMT -7
BTW, may I also pick your brain for the lard to beeswax ratios for summer and winter? Sorry, I can't do that, I don't really know them, I play that by ear. I mix about 6 part lard and 4 part beeswax, let it cool and see what I got. I then add "some" lard or beeswax to correct the consistency if it's not right. I keep doing that until I get it right. I do make one test which works for me. I put the winter mix in the freezer to see how hard it gets when frozen, make appropriate adjustments. This simple mix has worked very well for me over many years. I use it to lube my patches, the wads we are discussing and the inside and outside of my guns. How many "magic" solutions for this or that have we seen praised over the years? Hundreds, at least. I've never tried a single one of them. Being a minimalist is hard work, and we are a vanishing breed.  Spence |
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Post by brokennock on Oct 14, 2021 11:24:43 GMT -7
That is my basic lube process as well. For manufacture and use.
I do usually use a vegetable based fat instead of lard though as I have it more available. Usually olive oil, or more often recently, coconut oil.
In order to try to achieve more consistency between batches I tried something last time I made some.
I melted a bunch of beeswax in a double boiler and filled many plastic disposable shot glasses all to the same level. I call each shot, "1 part."
For a 1:1 product a shot glass is emptied of it's wax and filled to the same level as the fat source and melted together. Or 2 or three of them. I can now play with the ratio of "parts" to get what I want then repeat it in the future.
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Post by brokennock on Oct 14, 2021 11:26:39 GMT -7
Nock as requested I myself thoroughly enjoy shooting a tow wad and ball. Honestly never fiddle with cards, wads and the like. Good ole fashion tow usually. However, nock was gracious enough to send me a supply of various wads and cards for load development in my .62 and they obviously do very well for shot in my particular rifle gun. Thanks Hawkeyes. All shooting for load development is of the bench with a soft bench rest bag on top of a sandbag. This target and the ones over the last couple sessions were at 50 yards. I've found a few loads that seemed pretty good to very good at 25 yards but are way off at 50. |
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Post by artificer on Oct 14, 2021 17:28:03 GMT -7
BTW, may I also pick your brain for the lard to beeswax ratios for summer and winter? Sorry, I can't do that, I don't really know them, I play that by ear. I mix about 6 part lard and 4 part beeswax, let it cool and see what I got. I then add "some" lard or beeswax to correct the consistency if it's not right. I keep doing that until I get it right. I do make one test which works for me. I put the winter mix in the freezer to see how hard it gets when frozen, make appropriate adjustments. This simple mix has worked very well for me over many years. I use it to lube my patches, the wads we are discussing and the inside and outside of my guns. How many "magic" solutions for this or that have we seen praised over the years? Hundreds, at least. I've never tried a single one of them. Being a minimalist is hard work, and we are a vanishing breed. Spence Spence, Great Info. Thank you! Yes I can understand how it needs to be adjusted per batch. I ran into the same thing when making a very old and likely 17th/18th century wood finish for gun stocks and wood tools. Gus |
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Post by spence on Oct 15, 2021 6:31:06 GMT -7
I myself thoroughly enjoy shooting a tow wad and ball. Honestly never fiddle with cards, wads and the like. Good ole fashion tow usually. I agree, simple tow wadding is fun to shoot, accurate and relaxing. I was surprised to find, though, that punched wads were used very early. An exchange in The Art of Shooting Flying by Thomas Page, 1767: "FRIENDLY And what sort of wadding do you best approve of? I have heard some say that tow is best, others, cards stamped to fit the size of the bore. AIMWELL Tow, I think, is uncertain. If cards be used, the end of your rammer must be almost as broad as your barrel will admit of, to go down free, and quite flat at the end, to prevent the card from turning; and must be push'd down gradually, to give time for the air to pass, otherwise it will be troublesome. This is therefore not the quickest way." I don't know if they used anything equivalent to our cushion wads, but they did use hard ones with some weight, as evidenced by this early report: The Pennsylvania Gazette July 18, 1734 From Shrewsbury we hear, That on the 5th inst. being training day at that place, One of the Soldiers having his Musket loaded with a hard Wadd on the Charge, in attempting to fire between the Legs of one Samuel Davenport his Fellow Soldier, about Twenty-five years of Age, the Wadd struck his Ankle Bone with such Force, that it was shatter'd, and broke quite off; and a Day or two after, the poor Man's Leg was cut off, and it was greatly fear'd he would lose his Life thereby. Spence |
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