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Post by spence on Jun 27, 2022 16:31:12 GMT -7
Could this be an instance of belts being worn with a smock-frock?
From Magazine of History, V.3 (1906) p. 159, letter, James Parker, Norfolk VA merchant, to Charles Steuart, former Norfolk merchant now in Scotland, June 12, 1775; concerning VA troops raised to go to Boston:
"These shirt men or Virginia uniform are dressed with an Oznaburg shirt over their cloaths, a belt round them with a Tommyhawk or Scalping knife. They look like a band of Assassins and it is my opinion if they fight at all it will be in that way."
Spence
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RyanAK
City-dweller
Once scalped…
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Post by RyanAK on Jun 27, 2022 16:48:53 GMT -7
Well now! You bet! Assassins indeed. I had thought the early Virginia hunting shirts were ‘open before’, but now I recall one unit having “Liberty or Death” stitched on the breast, which likely means an overshirt. I also think the 2nd had shirts of purple.
A military scenario, but still a likely carryover from Virginia civilian frontier dress.
Also indicates a smock/frock come ‘hunting shirt’ as late as ‘75.
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Post by artificer on Jun 27, 2022 18:03:51 GMT -7
Well now! You bet! Assassins indeed. I had thought the early Virginia hunting shirts were ‘open before’, but now I recall one unit having “Liberty or Death” stitched on the breast, which likely means an overshirt. I also think the 2nd had shirts of purple. A military scenario, but still a likely carryover from Virginia civilian frontier dress. Also indicates a smock/frock come ‘hunting shirt’ as late as ‘75. The Culpepper Minute Battalion Militia wore "open before" green or brown colored hunting shirts. Some had an embroidered patch applied to the hunting shirt with "Liberty or Death" stitched onto it and it has been reported some had the same motto painted on their hunting shirts. They were formed in 1775 and did fine work. This including firing so accurately on British Ships anchored in the James River near Norfolk, that the British Gunners were forced to stop firing and close their gun ports. The British Sailors also could not go on deck or up into the masts to work their sails without getting hit from their rifle fire. So, the British had to cut their cable tows and float down the river to escape. One of the British (civilian) supply ships rammed another and severely damaged it during their "slow motion" getaway. Gus
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RyanAK
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Post by RyanAK on Jul 6, 2022 17:34:07 GMT -7
Belt. Size is good for over waistcoat or over frock and sash with a knife and/or belt ax. Now at polite distances, this will likely look black in anything other than direct sunlight. But it’s actually very dark brown. Like Coca-Cola. I need to buy a hole punch…
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Post by lenapej on Jul 7, 2022 14:45:04 GMT -7
Smock and belt look great.
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Keith
City-dweller
Bushfire close but safe now. Getting some good rain.
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Post by Keith on Jul 7, 2022 19:42:02 GMT -7
Just a reminder about using the correct terms, this garment was known as a "Frock" in the 18th century, smocking on frocks/smocks came later. FRENCH 18th century French peasants by artist George S Stuart This is an 18th century round frock, it is reversible. German walnut seller 1760. woodsrunnersdiary.blogspot.com/2013/01/thoughts-on-wearing-shirt.htmlThoughts On Wearing The Shirt.
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RyanAK
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Post by RyanAK on Jul 7, 2022 19:51:29 GMT -7
Good morning, Keith! Just a reminder about using the correct terms, this garment was known as a "Frock" in the 18th century, smocking on frocks/smocks came later. This guy… looks like he hasn’t known joy in a long time. Im trying to reprogram myself and have consistently trying to use ‘frock’. My confusion sets in when people often shorten ‘frock coat’ to just ‘frock’. The German walnut seller is interesting too. You don’t see many images depicting a shorter frock nor many showing open sleeves.
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RyanAK
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Once scalped…
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Post by RyanAK on Jul 7, 2022 20:01:15 GMT -7
From Keith’s blog. This is likely the first image I’ve seen of workers’ frocks (as opposed to a hunting shirt/frock) in something other than natural or bleached flax fabric. Somewhere above I think ‘Nock asked a question about colored or patterned material. Kieth, have you found any references to woolen frocks?
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Post by spence on Jul 7, 2022 21:43:40 GMT -7
There is a complication in my understanding of the meaning of the two terms, smock and frock. I think of the term smock as a noun, and it is, defined by the dictionary as "a loose garment worn over one's clothes to protect them". But, it is also a verb, defined as "to decorate (something) with smocking:" Further, smocking, another noun, is the end result of that decoration. It forms a patch of decorative pleats or gathers, and the garment is now said to have been smocked. Watch these short videos to see what smocking is all about. www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoUNRh2-Q5owww.youtube.com/watch?v=bQWsZSTiJcUThe dictionary also notes: "(also smock-frock) historical a smocked linen overgarment worn by an agricultural worker." So that when Wm. Blain said in 1822 that the hunting shirt being worn by the backwoodsmen in the Ohio valley was "as loose as an English farmer's smock-frock", he may have speaking of a linen overgarment, a frock, decorated with smocking Look back at the photo of Trepanning a Recruit which I posted on page 16 of this thread. We wondered what was going on with the overgarment of the recruit directly below the neck opening. That's smocking, I think. My seamstress wife agrees, but suggests that because the material around the decorative patch is not puckered, it may have been smocked on another piece and sewn on the frock. Spence
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Post by brokennock on Jul 9, 2022 5:49:50 GMT -7
Thank you for the clarification Spence... Smock vs Frock is now as clear as anything congress has ever written. 😑🙄
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Keith
City-dweller
Bushfire close but safe now. Getting some good rain.
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Post by Keith on Jul 12, 2022 0:57:30 GMT -7
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Keith
City-dweller
Bushfire close but safe now. Getting some good rain.
Posts: 990
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Post by Keith on Jul 12, 2022 1:12:46 GMT -7
Frocks & Smocks with belts. Early to mid 19th century. 18th century French Baker. French peasant carrying cheeses 1577
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Post by spence on Jul 12, 2022 6:51:14 GMT -7
Excellent, Keith, as usual.
Spence
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RyanAK
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Once scalped…
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Post by RyanAK on Jul 12, 2022 10:37:22 GMT -7
Wow! Well done, Kieth!
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