|
Post by brokennock on Apr 15, 2019 10:19:00 GMT -7
For a male coming of age around roughly 1758, and on and off the frontier from then through the American revolution. What style knee breaches are most appropriate? I honestly have not figured out the whole "fall front," "fly front," wide or narrow front thing.
Thanks, Dave
|
|
|
Post by Black Hand on Apr 15, 2019 16:00:51 GMT -7
|
|
|
Post by Black Hand on Apr 15, 2019 16:56:07 GMT -7
|
|
|
Post by brokennock on Apr 15, 2019 19:44:22 GMT -7
The difference in fly or fall is about what I figured on. But, I'm surprised the fly front was earlier. I figured the fall front was earlier and once the fly front came about it was just a developmental process to get to the fly we have today.
Is one fly or fall more common in different areas or with people of different olde world countries of origin?
Thanks for your time and insight, Dave
|
|
|
Post by straekat on Apr 16, 2019 6:04:16 GMT -7
Dave, the center fly button front did come first, and the flap/fall front seems to have been developed in southern Germany sometime during the early part of the 18th century. During the middle of the 18th century, the French called it "a la Bavarois", or "Bavarian" style where it was popular. The fly front became less fashionable during the 1750's, and after the French and Indian war was over, the "flap" version with or without pockets was the normal style until about the third or fourth decade of the 19th century when the fly front rebounded and since then, has dominated the type of opening preferred and used by men.
The flap or fall front was originally narrow and gradually became wider over time. By the 1820's, the flap was very broad and as wide as the entire front of the trousers.
If you are considering what type of impression and clothing to wear for roughly 1758, an ethnic German living in the Americas would most likely have been familiar with (and preferred) the flap front. You'd also have the choice of wool, linen, and particularly in the Pennsylvania area, leather.
A French-Canadian might not be aware of the most recent styles or trends in France, and more likely to wear what everyone else did...the fly front. English/Irish/Scottish/Welsh commoners who were familiar with the fly front may have stuck with the style until they learned how to make the new flap front....and gotten used to it.
Older males might stick with a style long after it was no longer fashionable. Younger males, particularly those who lived in towns, had money, etc, might want to adopt the latest style...the flap front.
If you want a pair that would be worn by someone who lived near but not in a settlement, town or city, the legs would probably be buttoned and you'd have an option of the lowest closure on the leg around the knee having a buckle or button closure. Tie strings were known, and some people who didn't care about style may have used them.
You can have them with or without pockets. Pockets are useful but not necessary. Generally, most surviving originals do have "mule ear" pockets that have button closures. There are also pocket less breeches, and making these is considerably easier and faster to make.
That's the short easily digested version....
|
|
|
Post by Black Hand on Apr 16, 2019 6:08:15 GMT -7
FWIW: "Two major styles were in use, first one is the French Fly that was by far the most popular style and was the one issued by the military in the F&I period. A rough estimate was that 60 to 70% of the pants were French Fly compared to 40 to 30% that were drop front. These figures will slowly change as the F&I give place to the Revolution War. At this time period, the drop front were now 60 to 70% of the general preferences compared to 40% to 30% for the old French Fly." travelingwithintheworld.ning.com/group/flyingcanoetraders/forum/topics/french-indian-war-pants"Most breeches had a front fall which is a flap that covers the front opening. Early in the era the flap was a wide fall, going all the way across from hip to hip (think of the outer seam of the pants we wear today). Later, the fall narrowed, going only from hip-bone to hip-bone. Both falls worked in exactly the same way; the waistband buttoned, usually with 2-3 buttons, then the fall closed like a bib over the otherwise open front area of the pants. Side by side drawing of wide and narrow falls which comes from: www.pemberley.com/images/Clothes/widefall-and-narrowfall2.jpg
There was a style called the "French fly", which is a simply a center front fly, but most Regency Englishmen didn't wear this style because they felt the French fly was somehow indecent and shouldn't be seen." historicalhussies.blogspot.com/2010/03/regency-mens-clothing-pants-breeches.htmlCan't confirm the quality or the documentation used for the information...
|
|
|
Post by Black Hand on Apr 16, 2019 8:14:30 GMT -7
My clothing: Closer view of the narrow-fall of my breeches:
|
|
|
Post by hawkeyes on Apr 16, 2019 10:04:07 GMT -7
My "breeches"
|
|
|
Post by hawkeyes on Apr 16, 2019 10:18:09 GMT -7
I do enjoy wearing my linen breeches from time to time, however I prefer my clouts and leggings.
From my research most woodsman within time adopted many native peoples dress including the clout and leggings throughout the period. This was especially true with many French voyageurs throughout Canada and the great lakes regions.
|
|
|
Post by brokennock on Apr 16, 2019 15:22:01 GMT -7
I do enjoy wearing my linen breeches from time to time, however I prefer my clouts and leggings. From my research most woodsman within time adopted many native peoples dress including the clout and leggings throughout the period. This was especially true with many French voyageurs throughout Canada and the great lakes regions. If the English though the fly front indecent, I can't imagine what they would think of me I a breachclout. Thanks for all the info fellas. It is really helpful. Not sure how you guys find all this stuff, and seemingly so quickly. I'm thinking to stick with fall front, and not worry about wide or narrow. My outer shirt or hunting frock will cover it anyway. I've seen written that properly fitted breaches shouldn't need a belt or suspenders/braces, when worn in the right place at the waist. About how high at or above the hip bone is "the right place?" Looking around me at people, a man's waist seems to get higher as he gets older.
|
|
|
Post by Black Hand on Apr 16, 2019 15:28:09 GMT -7
My breeches sit at the level of my hips (where my pants usually sit) - they are most comfortable there.
Finding stuff is a function of having looked before and knowing where to look. I have spent hundreds of hours looking at extant pieces in collections/museums as well as period and modern patterns when creating my clothing. I tend to bookmark any page that is interesting or has an image I might use. At that point, it is more a matter of remembering that I saw something somewhere at some time and finding it again or finding new stuff while searching (and bookmarking those pages for future use).
|
|
|
Post by Black Hand on Apr 16, 2019 15:31:30 GMT -7
I do enjoy wearing my linen breeches from time to time, however I prefer my clouts and leggings. From my research most woodsman within time adopted many native peoples dress including the clout and leggings throughout the period. This was especially true with many French voyageurs throughout Canada and the great lakes regions. If the English though the fly front indecent, I can't imagine what they would think of me I a breachclout. Reverend Woodmason: "It would be (as I once observ’d before) a Great Novelty to a Londoner to see one of these Congregations—The Men with only I a thin Shirt and pair of Breeches or Trousers on—barelegged and barefooted—The Women bareheaded, barelegged and barefoot with only a thin Shift and under Petticoat—Yet I cannot break [them?] of this—for the heat of the Weather admits not of any [but] thin Cloathing—I can hardly bear the Weight of my Whig and Gown, during Service. The Young Women have a most uncommon Practise, which I cannot break them off. They draw their Shift as tight as possible to the Body, and pin it close, to shew the roundness of their Breasts, and slender Waists (for they are generally finely shaped) and draw their Petticoat close to their Hips to shew the fineness of their Limbs—so that they might as well be in Puri Naturalibus—Indeed Nakedness is not censurable or indecent here, and they expose themselves often quite Naked, without Ceremony—Rubbing themselves and their Hair with Bears Oil and tying it up behind in a Bunch like the Indians—being hardly one degree removed from them—In few Years, I hope to bring about a Reformation, as I already have done in several Parts of the Country.""Tuesday August 16. Their Dresses almost as loose and Naked as the Indians, and differing in Nothing save Complexion—I could not conceive from whence this vast Body could swarm—But this Country contains ten times the Number of Persons beyond my Apprehension."Joseph Doddridge: "In the latter years of the Indian war our young men became more enamored of the Indian dress throughout with the exception of the matchcoat. The drawers were laid aside and the leggins made longer so as to reach the upper part of the thigh. The Indian breech clout was adopted. This was a piece of linen or cloth nearly a yard long and eight or nine inches broad. This passed under the belt before and behind leaving the ends for flaps hanging before and behind over the belt. These flaps were sometimes ornamented with some coarse kind of embroidery work. To the same belts which secured the breech clout strings which supported the long leggins were attached. When this belt as was often the case passed over the hunting shirt the upper part of the thighs and part of the hips were naked. The young warrior instead of being abashed by this nudity was proud of his Indian like dress. In some few instances I have seen them go into places of public worship in this dress. Their appearance however did not add much to the devotion of the young ladies."
|
|
Keith
City-dweller
Bushfire close but safe now. Getting some good rain.
Posts: 990
|
Post by Keith on Apr 16, 2019 18:36:45 GMT -7
For a male coming of age around roughly 1758, and on and off the frontier from then through the American revolution. What style knee breaches are most appropriate? I honestly have not figured out the whole "fall front," "fly front," wide or narrow front thing. Thanks, Dave In my opinion based on the research I have done, the best choice for this period & later is the French Fly. By Hogarth.Clothing of the 18th century by Beth Gilgun.This is a pair of French Fly breeches that were made from a pair of fall breeches, which is why the fly looks a little different. Keith.
|
|
|
Post by straekat on Apr 17, 2019 5:06:59 GMT -7
My breeches sit at the level of my hips (where my pants usually sit) - they are most comfortable there. Finding stuff is a function of having looked before and knowing where to look. I have spent hundreds of hours looking at extant pieces in collections/museums as well as period and modern patterns when creating my clothing. I tend to bookmark any page that is interesting or has an image I might use. At that point, it is more a matter of remembering that I saw something somewhere at some time and finding it again or finding new stuff while searching (and bookmarking those pages for future use). I print-to-file numerous articles and other files I find on-line, then give them a sentence long descriptive title that I can search for specific words in my stored files. This is particularly useful for images and makes finding sites or items that haven't been cached, possible to find again.
|
|
|
Post by straekat on Apr 17, 2019 5:14:46 GMT -7
For a male coming of age around roughly 1758, and on and off the frontier from then through the American revolution. What style knee breaches are most appropriate? I honestly have not figured out the whole "fall front," "fly front," wide or narrow front thing. Thanks, Dave In my opinion based on the research I have done, the best choice for this period & later is the French Fly. By Hogarth.Clothing of the 18th century by Beth Gilgun.This is a pair of French Fly breeches that were made from a pair of fall breeches, which is why the fly looks a little different. Keith. Keith, that Hogarth print shows a very interesting pair of breeches, with external pocket flaps on each side, not the usually seen mule-ear flaps that open from the side-seams. After I saw this image some time back, I wondered if this was a one-off kind of thing, and found a pair of extant breeches in a French museum with two sets of pocket flaps, one above the other, on each side, or a total of four! I thought about making a pair with internal pockets and flaps where a watch might go, then decided against it because I didn't want to be putting too many things all close to the center of my pelvis and to avoid bunching up too many things in that particular area. ;-)
|
|