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Post by Sicilianhunter on Sept 1, 2020 12:24:11 GMT -7
In our ongoing endeavor to be as authentic and accurate as possible with our accouterments as well as everything else I questioned whether or not a jag was a part of an authentic kit? I value them as a tool for using cleaning patches but I am uncertain of their accuracy. I am aware that tow and a worm seem to be the most prevalent but in the absence of tow and where a patch would be a likely replacement a worm might fall short. Can anyone lend some insight?
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Post by spence on Sept 1, 2020 17:05:22 GMT -7
Back in the mid-1990s I ran a small BP mailing list and this topic came up there. I don’t recall anyone providing direct evidence jags were part of the customary shooting gear in 18th century, but on the recommendation of another member I checked a book out of the library which had a lot of circumstantial evidence. It was British Gunmakers: Their Trade Cards, Cases and Equipment 1760-1860, by Neal and Back. There were many excellent up-close photos of cased pairs of flintlock pistols and their equipment, and I found that jags were commonly included. I found sets with them from 1780 to 1795 by Griffin and Tow, Durs Egg, J. Barton, but the authors stated that it was not unusual to find jags in sets as early as 1760. Many of the cased sets showed ramrods in the stocks of the guns but also a loading-cleaning rod. In a case of W. & J. Rigby pistols there was a bare loading-cleaning rod with a jag and two worms separated. Because there was only one rod for loading and cleaning it seems reasonable to assume all the attachments were removable so the one rod could be used for both. Here are a couple of shots of cased sets I found today on the internet which show them. Flintlocks, jag in the bottom compartment: A bit later, percussion, notice the jag with the rod, bottom compartment, worm upper right, wire brush center. Since it was known in the day, the idea that they might have used a jag with a long gun doesn’t seem too far-fetched. Spence
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Post by Sicilianhunter on Sept 2, 2020 1:25:58 GMT -7
Spence, Excellent info and detail!! Very interesting wire brush design!! I will someone would reproduce it. The jags are also something that I'm sure would be worth reproducing. I'm partial to the later one
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Keith
City-dweller
Bushfire close but safe now. Getting some good rain.
Posts: 990
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Post by Keith on Sept 2, 2020 14:48:27 GMT -7
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Keith
City-dweller
Bushfire close but safe now. Getting some good rain.
Posts: 990
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Post by Keith on Sept 2, 2020 14:57:30 GMT -7
Not an antique. I forged this worm on the end of my iron ramrod one winter in the cottage fireplace. Keith.
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Post by hawkeyes on Sept 3, 2020 5:07:06 GMT -7
I have this exact piece that was reproduced by Larry Callahan. Very handy instrument in cleaning. I personally forgo the use of a jag and have used nothing but a worm for years, much easier to verify authenticity. The log cabin shop, few hours North has numerous original 18th century rifles in their collection. At one time they had in possession two late PA style rifles, both with this threaded worm combination. Each was pinned to the wiping stick.
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Post by Sicilianhunter on Sept 3, 2020 8:09:16 GMT -7
Le Loup, Thanks for that info!! I checked the articles on Woodsrunner’s Diary in my search and thanks for the info you offer there!!
Hawk, I have a Callahan combo ball screw/worm combo piece but I find that when I use the worm to run cleaning patches I tend to compress the cork screw of the worm because I drive it too hard into breech base try get it clean down there. Maybe I shouldn’t screw the patch into the worm... I haven’t tried running a patch with the worm still inverted on the ball screw though. For some reason it didn’t occur to me to try it that way until I looked at Le Loup’s first set of pics...
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Post by spence on Sept 3, 2020 8:34:03 GMT -7
Take a close look at the worm in the boxed percussion pistols and you will see it is not plain, it's a combo tool of some sort. Removable, with threaded stud, but some kind of threaded extension in the center of the tines of the worm. I have a tool similar to the antique one, but my worm is not reversible. I also have an original worm similar to the one Keith made, permanently fixed on the ramrod of a mid-19th century single barrel percussion shotgun. Spence
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Post by hawkeyes on Sept 3, 2020 11:52:41 GMT -7
Le Loup, Thanks for that info!! I checked the articles on Woodsrunner’s Diary in my search and thanks for the info you offer there!! Hawk, I have a Callahan combo ball screw/worm combo piece but I find that when I use the worm to run cleaning patches I tend to compress the cork screw of the worm because I drive it too hard into breech base try get it clean down there. Maybe I shouldn’t screw the patch into the worm... I haven’t tried running a patch with the worm still inverted on the ball screw though. For some reason it didn’t occur to me to try it that way until I looked at Le Loup’s first set of pics... You must really be pushing hard to compress the tines. If you haven't used tow to clean give it a try. Cleaning with patch and worm I find to be a pain, as in they don't work well together. With tow it will grab the worm securely and bunch together allowing you to essentially scrub the breech with good results, very efficient, basically a big q-tip that's washable and reusable. Once you use worm and tow you'll get a warm and fuzzy feeling, I promise!
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Post by spence on Sept 3, 2020 12:34:17 GMT -7
Another advantage of the worm and tow combination is that you can twist the rod with the tow against the breech and scrub those corners where the bore and breech plug meet. I have always been concerned that corner doesn't get cleaned well with a jag and patch. If you spin the rod with a jag, the jag spins but the patch doesn't.
I also do something similar when cleaning my smoothbores, but with a single-tine worm and cloth. I pierce the corner of a long strip of cloth with the worm, then wind it onto the worm until it forms a cylinder of proper size so I can twist the cloth and scrub that corner.
Either a single-tine worm like Keith's or one of the coil worms works for that job with cloth. With tow I find that a double-tine worm works best, but the coil worm does very well, too.
It doesn't take much to make some simple minded old men happy. For some weird reason I always feel I'm really walking in the old boys' footsteps when I stop by some stream, wind up some tow on my worm, wet it in the stream and scrub my bore with it. Why such a simple little act pleases me so in todays stupid, complex world is a puzzle.
Spence
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Post by brokennock on Sept 4, 2020 2:03:23 GMT -7
....If you spin the rod with a jag, the jag spins but the patch doesn't. .... Spence I filed 4 notches opposite eachother in the front edges of the jag to "catch" the patch material and alleviate this issue. When I posted pics of it on the other forum I was told how unnecessary it is.
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Post by paranger on Sept 4, 2020 4:33:04 GMT -7
....If you spin the rod with a jag, the jag spins but the patch doesn't. .... Spence I filed 4 notches opposite eachother in the front edges of the jag to "catch" the patch material and alleviate this issue. When I posted pics of it on the other forum I was told how unnecessary it is. Just one more reason not to go there
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Post by brokennock on Sept 4, 2020 14:31:39 GMT -7
I filed 4 notches opposite eachother in the front edges of the jag to "catch" the patch material and alleviate this issue. When I posted pics of it on the other forum I was told how unnecessary it is. Just one more reason not to go there I get bored and stray. Now and then something comes up there worth reading or in the classifieds. Of course there is a lot that leaves me shaking my head wondering if some people will ever "get it," and if some certain people will ever just go away. (Fully cognizant of course that there are probably quite a few who wish I would go away.)
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Post by hawkeyes on Sept 4, 2020 15:22:05 GMT -7
Just one more reason not to go there I get bored and stray. Now and then something comes up there worth reading or in the classifieds. Of course there is a lot that leaves me shaking my head wondering if some people will ever "get it," and if some certain people will ever just go away. (Fully cognizant of course that there are probably quite a few who wish I would go away.) Couldn't handle that forum anymore. I'm glad we have the treasure trove we have here.
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Post by brokennock on Sept 4, 2020 16:08:25 GMT -7
I get bored and stray. Now and then something comes up there worth reading or in the classifieds. Of course there is a lot that leaves me shaking my head wondering if some people will ever "get it," and if some certain people will ever just go away. (Fully cognizant of course that there are probably quite a few who wish I would go away.) Couldn't handle that forum anymore. I'm glad we have the treasure trove we have here. Me too.
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