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Post by spence on Feb 16, 2022 11:31:56 GMT -7
My hunting career is drawing to a close. I doubt if I’ll hunt deer again, and small game is only slightly more likely. It has been a long one, my first squirrel was killed in 1941. The last four decades were done with muzzleloaders exclusively. That, combined with the re-enacting and study of early history has provided me with more pleasure than it’s possible to describe.
Understanding that the end is in sight makes me melancholy, to say the least, but unfortunately, there is another aspect, and I also realize that it’s probably just as well my career is over. As with many other old folks, I feel I have outlived my value system. It no longer fits the world of today.
I’m scientifically oriented in my world view, including my hunting. I believe the game laws are there for good reason. I have an amateur’s understanding of the predator-prey relationship and how important it is, and that has informed my approach to hunting. I’m one of those simple minded fools who obeys the game laws even when no one is watching. I may be wrong, but I have the strong feeling we are a dwindling breed.
Not long after I joined The Muzzleloading Forum about twelve years ago I learned a new acronym, SSS, “shoot, shovel and shut up”. That was in a discussion of how to handle the illegal killing of grey wolves being re-introduced in some of the western states. It has been alluded to frequently over the years in other contexts, most recently in relation to the killing of bobcat, cougar and lynx. A days-long thread with many piling on to describe and recommend their experiences with SSS was, to me, just unbelievable. When I spoke against such activities the response was that I was the kind of member who should be put in the lead box and ignored. The moderators said not a word. No other member posted an objection. The final straw, though, was when a long-time member sent me a private message saying,”... shoot them in the gut with a .22lr. They will run off and eventually die. And, don’t forget the third rule, shut up.” So, shoot the predators in the gut, on purpose. They won’t embarrass you by falling down in front of the game warden, but will go off and die in agony but conveniently out of sight. I never thought I’d hear a sportsman say such a thing. Come to think of it, I still haven’t, have I?
The attitude of what seems a very large percentage of hunters these days seem to be well described in this post.
“If it kills deer fawns or turkey poults or my chickens it gets shot. In season, out of season, at night, in the daylight, Etc. hawks, coyotes, bob cats, feral cats, pet cats, wild dogs, all the same SKS Shoot….kick it in the ditch…. shutup.”
As I said, it’s probably just as well my hunting days are over.
Spence
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Post by Black Hand on Feb 16, 2022 14:47:43 GMT -7
Spence,
Part of the issue is that people just don't understand how predators can and do improve the herds and environment. The attitude of SSS is quite shameful and comes from a place of selfishness - I just wanna go out and kill something and anything that interferes with this is BAD. Unfortunately, this attitude is prevalent in MT where I see moronic bumper stickers like "Smoke a pack a day" and "One wolf equals 50 elk" or some other such nonsense..
I hunt to feed myself and friends with whom I share my harvest. It is work, hard work, as I do everything from buying the gas to cutting/wrapping. Some years I don't get anything and that's OK with me. I rarely hunt with others and only have myself to answer to, but make every effort to hunt ethically. This is the reason why after the first 2 days of season, the muzzleloader stayed home because I can no longer see the rear sight (other than a fuzzy blur) and wounding an animal is something I truly dislike - single shot on an animal that isn't alarmed.
I commend you for making the decision but urge you to share what you know with others, perhaps mentoring a youth in the field...
Respectfully,
Albert
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Post by armando on Feb 16, 2022 15:03:13 GMT -7
I'm a hunter and a trapper and Hunter Ed instructor.
Depending on community, those three things don't always co-exist well (hunters not understanding trappers, nobody understanding wildlife management and the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation).
Many don't realize that regulations are there to help manage game and predator populations AND habitat.
I'm concerned that our rights to hunt, trap, etc will be endangered by the ignorance (as in the examples you cited Spence) and hostility from within the ranks (not just the rabid anti-hunters).
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Post by brokennock on Feb 16, 2022 17:09:15 GMT -7
The moderating there has been worse than ever lately, and any attempts to police our own ranks there are met with hostility..... to the point that it has brought out hostility in myself that I usually reserve for more pressing and immediate "problems."
That said, I stopped following that topic after the second post, so had no idea it has devolved to that point, or I too would have come down on the side that you did. I will admit, I don't have the faith in those who make our game laws and hunting regulations (or in some cases don't make them) that you seem to,,,, but I still try to follow them to the best of my ability to understand them.
Predators are a tricky subject. I know in my part of my small state, deer numbers are dropping dramatically. With an exploding bear population,,, and no way to keep it in check (not even attempts being made), increasing numbers of an already large coyote population, and an increasing number of bobcats, our fawn mortality rate goes up and up. Bears and bobcats are off limits to hunters. Coyote season never closes but it seems few hunt them.
Bears are more and more frequently breaking into homes, garages, barns, even vehicles. Is this a SSS situation? I don't know. I do know that if you shoot a bear that has broken into your home/garage/barn or is attacking your pet,,,, you better have some serious claw wounds or you will be arrested and prosecuted. This doesn't seem right either.
I agree that the ethics of many so called hunters, has gone down the drain, there isn't much in our society that hasn't.
Your post makes my heart hurt in many ways.
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Post by brokennock on Feb 16, 2022 17:13:33 GMT -7
...Many don't realize that regulations are there to help manage game and predator populations AND habitat.... This would be the ideal. Unfortunately it is not always the case in every state. |
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Post by spence on Feb 16, 2022 17:39:27 GMT -7
What happened to the post by paranger?
Spence
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Post by paranger on Feb 16, 2022 17:49:35 GMT -7
What happened to the post by paranger? Spence I deleted it, Spence. I was beginning to depress even myself. Figured I'd spare the rest of you. |
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Post by spence on Feb 16, 2022 18:10:52 GMT -7
OK, thanks.
I was simply going to comment that the change in hunter ethics I'm thinking of is a much older problem. I agree completely about the change in societal relationships in the last few years, but it seems to me the erosion of ethics in hunting has been going on for decades.
Spence
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Post by spence on Feb 17, 2022 18:00:56 GMT -7
I will admit, I don't have the faith in those who make our game laws and hunting regulations (or in some cases don't make them) that you seem to,,,, Is this a SSS situation? I don't know. I do admire the job our Fish and Game does. When I was a young hunter in the 1950s there was no deer season, hadn't been for decades. Same for turkey, they had both been shot out long before. My father grew up in the mountains of eastern Kentucky, and his father's big ambition in the 1920s was to shoot a deer. Never happened. Our F&G restocked both deer and turkey, as well as river otter and elk, beginning in the 1950s, and now there are deer and turkey seasons state wide, and a significant herd of elk are thriving in the eastern hills. The average deer harvest is now about 140,000, this last year's elk was 294. The turkey flock is 250K-400K, last year's spring harvest was 31K. F&G do a very good job of changing the regulations as needed in response to changing situations in each of the 120 counties. They extend or shorten seasons, bag limits, etc. every year as needed. Got a farm pond you want to fish in? They will stock it for you. Etc., etc. It was my pleasure to know and hunt with a local game warden for a few years, and I saw that he was sincerely interested in doing a good job for our outdoorsmen. I can't speak for others, but there never will be a SSS situation for me. Most states will take measures to solve wildlife problems such as a troublesome bear if you ask for help. And if critters cause damage, many states offer compensation. A very common thread which is easy to pick up on in conversations such as I discussed above is that many people assume F&G are the enemy. They aren't. Well, I guess they are, and rightly so, if a man does the things they are describing. Spence |
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Post by spence on Feb 17, 2022 18:47:32 GMT -7
It's hunter's ethics that I'm concerned about, Joe. It seems to be becoming an old-fashioned concept these days. Too many times it is also questions of legality, of course, but not always.
Spence
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Post by spence on Feb 18, 2022 8:10:57 GMT -7
Now all of Joe's posts are gone?? It's a weird world we live in.
Spence
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Post by Black Hand on Feb 18, 2022 9:38:53 GMT -7
Now all of Joe's posts are gone?? It's a weird world we live in. Spence I did not delete them...perhaps Joe did. |
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Joe
City-dweller
Posts: 170
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Post by Joe on Feb 18, 2022 11:14:52 GMT -7
Now all of Joe's posts are gone?? It's a weird world we live in. Spence Sorry Spence, I deleted my posts. I didn't want anything I said to be misconstrued or offend anyone. IMO, a lack of ethics is nothing new and it's no more prevalent now than it was 50 or 100 years ago. What is different, is our ability to perceive it as being different through the use social media. Social media has the ability to make normal things seem extra ordinary. |
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Post by spence on Feb 18, 2022 11:42:38 GMT -7
Totally your free choice, Joe, and none of my business.
You may be right about the apparent fading of hunting ethics being a matter of perception rather than fact. I've often thought that the worst thing about social media is that it shows us as we really are and have been. Not a pretty picture. Maybe guys like the one who posted this have always been with us, and always will be. I do find it unpleasant to be reminded of the fact, though.
“IMO yotes don't deserve anything, they kill our fawns, rabbits, pheasants and the occasional squirrel. I’ll pretty much shoot them and leave them lay..or shoot em and don't care if they die a painful long agonizing death.. They killed my favorite dog a while back... If I see em, I shoot to kill. Last year I stuck one with an arrow.. Guess what? Didn't follow that one up either.. Sorry if I offend you or others with this post.. But I simply don't care.”
“Also if you care to reread my post, no way I'm getting all cut up walking through the briars in a thick woods for a mangey coyote...it's dead, that's all I care about.”
I would assume your "ethics" depend on the situation you grew up in. Nobody in my surroundings would have behaved in that way, I think, but we all learn about the world in a bubble.
Spence
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Joe
City-dweller
Posts: 170
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Post by Joe on Feb 18, 2022 12:37:20 GMT -7
Totally your free choice, Joe, and none of my business. You may be right about the apparent fading of hunting ethics being a matter of perception rather than fact. I've often thought that the worst thing about social media is that it shows us as we really are and have been. Not a pretty picture. Maybe guys like the one who posted this have always been with us, and always will be. I do find it unpleasant to be reminded of the fact, though. “IMO yotes don't deserve anything, they kill our fawns, rabbits, pheasants and the occasional squirrel. I’ll pretty much shoot them and leave them lay..or shoot em and don't care if they die a painful long agonizing death.. They killed my favorite dog a while back... If I see em, I shoot to kill. Last year I stuck one with an arrow.. Guess what? Didn't follow that one up either.. Sorry if I offend you or others with this post.. But I simply don't care.” “Also if you care to reread my post, no way I'm getting all cut up walking through the briars in a thick woods for a mangey coyote...it's dead, that's all I care about.” I would assume your "ethics" depend on the situation you grew up in. Nobody in my surroundings would have behaved in that way, I think, but we all learn about the world in a bubble. Spence The worst thing about social media is the ability for one isolated occurrence to be amplified millions of times at the speed of light. All without verification. One unverified incident , off comment, or isolated incident soon becomes a prevalent and a perceived accepted norm. A brilliant example of this with earlier technology was the 1938 War of the Words broadcast. When radio allowed millions to be falsely influenced simultaneously. The reintroduction of species, brings with it ethical problems aside from hunting, and hunting is only one of the many unethical things that humans do to animals and each other. Ethics are, little more than self-established rules within a clique. |
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