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Post by brokennock on Apr 27, 2022 18:20:37 GMT -7
I need more data on the Chambers Pennsylvania Fowler… I just can’t tell from their photos. Must be a build thread on the interwebs somewhere… Try the ALR Forum under the Tutorials heading. I know Dave Person has at least one "build along" tutorial there, but I'm pretty sure it is a scratch build. I'm sure something there comes close. Dave goes by a different moniker there though, can't remember what. A few of the bigger name builders are known to show up there at least now and then. |
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Post by hawkeyes on Apr 28, 2022 7:07:38 GMT -7
American beech is one beautiful stock wood... As for the ole wonderful walnut!
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Post by paranger on Apr 28, 2022 9:31:27 GMT -7
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Post by brokennock on Apr 28, 2022 10:16:30 GMT -7
Nice. Another one rubbing it in, lol.
Did he leave the rear sight as a blank and have you file your own groove? That groove looks much, much, more narrow than what I've usually seen.
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RyanAK
City-dweller
Once scalped…
Posts: 979
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Post by RyanAK on Apr 28, 2022 10:19:19 GMT -7
Wow. Just lovely. Every Brooks Gun I’ve seen in person or online has been spot on. There’s something just right about them. Notches in the stock, eh?  Understand this isn’t meant as a challenge and that I’m trying to further my understanding here, K? I’m trying to learn the supply lines and ways of commerce of the period. What, if anything, was different for the Indian/Frontier trade vs. trade through merchants in towns to European colonists and Indians… especially as it relates to firearms? I can tell you where my confusion and curiosity about this started so many years ago… with brass tack decorated Northwest Trade Guns. I’m sure I’m not alone. I’m learning more as I research, but I’d bet I’m not the only one who at onetime thought ‘trade guns’ meant ‘Indian guns’. There are guns to trade to Indians, then there are guns for the trade. Is there a difference? With French arms, it would certainly appear so. What about with British imported arms? Boiled down… Was the Type G imported to Pennsylvania for sale to white colonists so that it appears on the frontier? I hope so, because that one by Mr. Brooks that our Pennsylvania Ranger friend showed us gives me a mighty itch for one! |
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RyanAK
City-dweller
Once scalped…
Posts: 979
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Post by RyanAK on Apr 28, 2022 10:22:21 GMT -7
I also like your floor! Our 1930s kitchen is done as linoleum ’tiles’ painted on the plank. Nifty.
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Post by paranger on Apr 28, 2022 10:38:37 GMT -7
I also like your floor! Our 1930s kitchen is done as linoleum ’tiles’ painted on the plank. Nifty. Thanks My wife used to have a business doing 18th c. floorcloth reproductions. Most of her designs (including that one) came from a 1739 catalog by John Carwitham. She even made Early American Life's artisan directory one year. Our ca 1797 house is full of them. 😉 |
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Post by paranger on Apr 28, 2022 10:39:40 GMT -7
Nice. Another one rubbing it in, lol. Did he leave the rear sight as a blank and have you file your own groove? That groove looks much, much, more narrow than what I've usually seen. No, that sight came right from Mike that way. The other I had (Hawkeye's) was slightly different. Not sure why... |
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Post by paranger on Apr 28, 2022 10:54:03 GMT -7
Wow. Just lovely. Every Brooks Gun I’ve seen in person or online has been spot on. There’s something just right about them. Notches in the stock, eh? Understand this isn’t meant as a challenge and that I’m trying to further my understanding here, K? I’m trying to learn the supply lines and ways of commerce of the period. What, if anything, was different for the Indian/Frontier trade vs. trade through merchants in towns to European colonists and Indians… especially as it relates to firearms? I can tell you where my confusion and curiosity about this started so many years ago… with brass tack decorated Northwest Trade Guns. I’m sure I’m not alone. I’m learning more as I research, but I’d bet I’m not the only one who at onetime thought ‘trade guns’ meant ‘Indian guns’. There are guns to trade to Indians, then there are guns for the trade. Is there a difference? With French arms, it would certainly appear so. What about with British imported arms? Boiled down… Was the Type G imported to Pennsylvania for sale to white colonists so that it appears on the frontier? I hope so, because that one by Mr. Brooks that our Pennsylvania Ranger friend showed us gives me a mighty itch for one! Thanks. Mike does great work. I asked for the 4 "tally" notches and heavily "distressed" finish after seeing one of Brooks' previous guns done similarly. Figured it would add a nice conversation starter to my persona. In my case, the number 4 comes from 21st century Iraqi tank kills, however. 😁 You bring up a great question. There just isn't enough detail on most store inventories and advertisements, etc., that I have seen to specifically and conclusively determine whether "Carolina guns" (the period term) were among those sold to colonists in PA, but to me it stands to reason that - much like English trade knives from Sheffield - these mass produced Birmingham guns of a well established pattern would have also found a market with economical colonists. I think that is nowhere more likely than in Pennsylvania where there was a rather sudden spike in demand for firearms of any sort after 1755. If you look at a previous thread on type g / Carolina guns opened by Sicilianhunter, as I recall, you can see that archeological remains of these guns were found nearly everywhere in British (and much of French) North America throughout most of the 18th c. I am, of course, open to counter-arguments... |
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Post by paranger on Apr 28, 2022 11:09:25 GMT -7
Addendum to my previous post: I found my copy of Lee Burke's excellent article " 18th Century English Trade Guns in the South, or the Carolina Gun, It's Time and Place in History."
He cites an estate inventory for Thomas Hancock's store in York County, VA from 1732-1740 which included "40 Carolina guns" valued at 22 pounds 10 shillings. A "brick and mortar" store on the Virginia frontier only to support the Indian trade? Seems unlikely to me...
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Post by hawkeyes on Apr 28, 2022 11:45:19 GMT -7
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RyanAK
City-dweller
Once scalped…
Posts: 979
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Post by RyanAK on Apr 28, 2022 11:45:58 GMT -7
Ah! Another book to acquire or borrow! It would be wonderful to know more about merchant life both on the frontier and in settled areas. Great find and I agree, a “store” was likely dealing with both Indians and settlers. Interesting note: at the request of Shikellamy, the Moravians established a gunsmith at Shamokin. Wouldn’t y’a just love to know more about that? If I recall, it was more for servicing firearms than making them or selling them, but I’m sure there was some of that taking place. I need to find where I have that information. There’s a quote where Shikellamy admonishes the smith after a complaint about non-payment for work done that the smith should in the future hold the work until payment is received, because “these Indians cannot be trusted to pay”. I’ll need to go back to Hamilton and review the distribution he cites on the Type G. If I remember, most of the dug artifacts were in the south… but that’s where most of the archeology was done. I wonder if any are in the record at Ticonderoga… An update to that book would be a wonderful project. Four tanks, eh? Well done! I didn’t realize that was a distressed finish. That is extremely believable. Not many could pull that off! How much you want for it?  |
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RyanAK
City-dweller
Once scalped…
Posts: 979
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Post by RyanAK on Apr 28, 2022 12:02:22 GMT -7
Oh, lord… 20 or 28 gauge? What wood were these stocked in? Just lovely. So, would one step up from the Carolina guns be the same stock architecture with updated hardware and locks? Cast trigger guard and butt plate rather than sheet? Moving from history back to “I’m gonna build a gun” for a moment… Chambers has the PA and English Fowlers. Clay Smith has the ‘1740’ and Type G. There’s a few others with ‘kits’ out there. I also just remembered I have Track’s full sized print for an ‘English Fowler’ if I want to attempt to build from a plank. Track also has carved but non-inlet ‘Flint Fowler’ stocks available in maple and cherry for an American-stocked composite smoothbore… I need to take a closer look at that stock’s profile. Hmmm…. |
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Post by brokennock on Apr 28, 2022 18:49:39 GMT -7
Addendum to my previous post: I found my copy of Lee Burke's excellent article " 18th Century English Trade Guns in the South, or the Carolina Gun, It's Time and Place in History." He cites an estate inventory for Thomas Hancock's store in York County, VA from 1732-1740 which included "40 Carolina guns" valued at 22 pounds 10 shillings. A "brick and mortar" store on the Virginia frontier only to support the Indian trade? Seems unlikely to me... That might be a quote worth gold per word for discussions of trade guns in general and the Carolina Gun in particular. |
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RyanAK
City-dweller
Once scalped…
Posts: 979
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Post by RyanAK on Apr 28, 2022 19:07:53 GMT -7
Addendum to my previous post: I found my copy of Lee Burke's excellent article " 18th Century English Trade Guns in the South, or the Carolina Gun, It's Time and Place in History." He cites an estate inventory for Thomas Hancock's store in York County, VA from 1732-1740 which included "40 Carolina guns" valued at 22 pounds 10 shillings. A "brick and mortar" store on the Virginia frontier only to support the Indian trade? Seems unlikely to me... That might be a quote worth gold per word for discussions of trade guns in general and the Carolina Gun in particular. Wait… I’m not good with Virginia but isn’t York County on the coast? Was that frontier? If not frontier, that actually likely supports that the intent of these guns was for sale to European Virginians. Interesting stuff. |
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