RyanAK
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Once scalped…
Posts: 979
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Post by RyanAK on Apr 28, 2022 19:12:51 GMT -7
Addendum to the above. Clay Smith had mentioned that same York Co. inventory in an email response to some questions I had asked. He states that at least one inventory from a tidewater merchant also lists painted and spotted trade guns in stock as well. Nifty!
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Post by paranger on Apr 29, 2022 2:57:03 GMT -7
That might be a quote worth gold per word for discussions of trade guns in general and the Carolina Gun in particular. Wait… I’m not good with Virginia but isn’t York County on the coast? Was that frontier? If not frontier, that actually likely supports that the intent of these guns was for sale to European Virginians. Interesting stuff. Yup - you're right. At first I was thinking that the 1750 extent of the county might've been larger (as was the case with the PA county of York, for example), but that doesn't appear to be the case based on the earliest map I could find. It seems to have always been confined to the peninsula. So, I agree: we sre talking POPULATED Tidewater VA here... |
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RyanAK
City-dweller
Once scalped…
Posts: 979
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Post by RyanAK on Apr 29, 2022 7:39:58 GMT -7
Interesting, eh? Now if we could find more of the same sort of data. I’d love to know what was coming into Philadelphia and dispersing westward. What was available at John Harris’s? Who was buying the German rifle barrels coming to Pennsylvania as early as the 1730s and how did they get stocked?
I’m organizing some notes I’ve made on what I think was happening at the time and may have been around on the Susquehanna frontier in the 1750s. Based on the little primary source info we have, supported with relic arms and the archeological record, spiced with my conjecture. I don’t have all the primary sources noted in chapter and verse since this was less ‘scholarly’ and more to get my mind right on a PC firelock for my own use, but eventually I’ll be able to do that. Hopefully you all will be interested and have some thoughts or research to contribute.
Down the rabbit hole we go…
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RyanAK
City-dweller
Once scalped…
Posts: 979
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Post by RyanAK on Apr 29, 2022 12:26:57 GMT -7
Here’s my working list of arms that I believe would have been found on the Susquehanna frontier in the 1750s-1760s. This is generally in order of “most prevalent” to “pretty rare but possible”. If I’ve overlooked anything or you can support or challenge with evidence or just plain ol’ conjecture, please jump in! I’ll be going through these individually and I’m detail in subsequent posts. I’m looking specifically at civilian-owned arms, not at Province or Crown property. Guns Along the Susquehanna c.1755
* English Trade Guns - Imported arms from London and Birmingham makers for both the Indian and white colonist trade. Carolina Guns, Bumford Guns, etc. The evidence seems to indicate huge numbers coming to the colonies. * English Import Fowling Guns - A higher end imported sporting arm made by Richard Wilson and others. I think these may have been more prevalent in settled areas, but I’m sure the more “well to do“ heading to Shamokin would have carried something along these lines. * Colonial Made Fowling Guns - British-style guns with imported locks, barrels and hardware likely the most prevalent. New England Fowlers possible in the Wyoming Valley. Most likely shorter ‘utility’ guns rather than the very long ‘true’ fowling pieces used for market hunting. Built to a “pattern” or style * Colonial “Vernacular” or “Composite” Guns - Assembled with imported or up-cycled parts. Very occasionally seen with crude maker-made furniture, and this seems like a “frontier repaired” feature. These range from “cobbled together” to “well done” and are more “gun” than “Fowler”. Large variety in stock architecture and parts combinations, including military arms parts.
* English Fusils (Fusees) - I run across enough mention and surviving guns to think these were around. Not sure if they were imported for trade or mostly brought to the colonies with British officers. Or purchased as part of provincial armament. Civilian ownership seems unlikely, but possible.
* Rifles - There’s enough quality references to know these were around in some numbers. When Bouquet is asking for lead bars and loose powder because “many” provincials have rifles and can’t use the King’s ammunition, and it’s a matter of military logistics on an ambitious expedition, I think we give credence to the statement. However… I believe in the 1750s we’re likely too early for a truly American Longrifle. I think we have Jaegers and long Jaegers and English imported rifles and German imported rifles and rifles built in Pennsylvania with imported German and English barrels. My belief is the rifle of the time likely looked like a longer Jaeger or a British Fowler.
* French Trade Guns - Rare but possible Most prevalent on the West Shore of the Susquehanna due to French trade and influence with Indians traveling between the Ohio and Susquehanna.
* Commercial Muskets and Surplus Military Arms - I find more examples of surviving guns and archeological evidence than specific mention in documents.
So! That’s how I’ve been working through this. As time allows I’ll flesh out my thoughts on each, but there’s eight categories to think on. What say the learned members of the forum?
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Post by paranger on Apr 29, 2022 14:05:26 GMT -7
I think you have a good list going.
One note on early PA rifles. I think the term you are looking for is "transitional rifle " Around this time, barrels began to get longer - beyond the short 25-30" Jaeger rifle (of which there were undoubtedly examples among the Pennsylvania German community) and what we later know as the "golden age" longrifle with a 42-44" barrel. There are differing theories about why this happened (beyond the scope of this thread), but for what it is worth I find the most compelling to be the increasing difficulty of obtaining high quality "rifle powder" brought over by German immigrants and the inferior quality of available domestic powder.
In any case, barrels started to get longer in the mid 18th c. on domestic rifles (and possibly even imported German barrels?) - in the neighborhood of 38-39" on average for pre- Revolutionary rifles. Perhaps the best known surviving example is the Edward Marshall rifle, but there is at least one similar "smooth rifle" by Andreas Albrecht made for Shawnee Chief Paxinosa cs. 1752 with similar dimensions and hardware.
Other characteristics of these transitional rifles held over from Jaegers include Germanic locks, sliding wooden patch boxes, and wide butts (2" +).
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RyanAK
City-dweller
Once scalped…
Posts: 979
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Post by RyanAK on Apr 29, 2022 14:38:54 GMT -7
I sorta lumped all rifles together because I think it’s more complicated than a direct lineage between Jaeger and Pennsylvania Longrifle. The term “transitional rifle” doesn’t quite feel right to me for some reason.
I think this book might be interesting, and it’s been quoted elsewhere on various forums, including by Gus.
Immigrant and Entrepreneur: The Atlantic World of Caspar Wistar
“Caspar Wistar imported German rifles in the 1730s and 1740s, asking his supplier to tailor them for the American market, where consumers prefer rifles with barrels that are three feet and three to four inches long”
Now I need to get the book to check the author’s scholarship, but this would indicate that imported German rifles an rifle barrels were stretching out to 40” by the 1740s. There was an established market demand that Wistar was supplying.
There are a few rifles around that don’t fit in the linear progression which truly grab me. Of Sorts… has a fascinating rifle on Long Land musket stock architecture shown along with the Faber rifle. And Colonial Frontier Guns has a rifle on a musket-style stock with French trade gun furniture.
Actually… now I need to go look and see if these are actually the same gun…
Anyway… I’m curious about Rifles and I think it’s both fascinating and more complicated in the 1750s than what a lot of what is written would imply.
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Post by paranger on Apr 29, 2022 15:19:21 GMT -7
38...39...40...
Wistar data sounds pretty consistent with the "transitional rifle" idea to me.
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Post by Black Hand on Apr 29, 2022 17:21:47 GMT -7
Transitional rifles are built the way I like my women - narrow waist and big butt....  |
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Post by paranger on Apr 29, 2022 17:36:17 GMT -7
Transitional rifles are built the way I like my women - narrow waist and big butt.... 🤣😂 |
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Post by hawkeyes on Apr 29, 2022 18:28:21 GMT -7
Transitional rifles are built the way I like my women - narrow waist and big butt.... I'll second that, plus they gotta be redheaded... Why I married one! |
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Post by Black Hand on Apr 29, 2022 18:30:00 GMT -7
Transitional rifles are built the way I like my women - narrow waist and big butt.... I'll second that, plus they gotta be redheaded... Why I married one! Redhead, brunette or blonde - I'm not that fussy. I do have a soft spot for redheads (being one myself)... |
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RyanAK
City-dweller
Once scalped…
Posts: 979
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Post by RyanAK on Apr 29, 2022 19:02:34 GMT -7
Actually… now I need to go look and see if these are actually the same gun… Just checked. Not the same rifle. |
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Post by hawkeyes on Apr 30, 2022 4:14:08 GMT -7
Build your own start to finish... Something I've wanted to do for years but haven't been able muster the courage. That is forge the barrel, lock and cast all furniture along with meticulous wood selection. You then get exactly what you want, not having to rely on other parts and pieces. One day soon I'll start such a project which will be a smoothbore as I haven't the resources to rifle a barrel. IMO, this route is best outside of finding a builder who doesn't have a monumental backlog. This is the first fowler I made from a blank of walnut. A typical simple English gun in 20 gauge. Sold this piece to a gentleman in PA, wish I hadn't.  If you can source a lock and barrel the rest will follow with ease If the task is something your comfortable with starting. |
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Post by brokennock on Apr 30, 2022 5:01:08 GMT -7
If anyone here can take on and succeed with that project it is you Hawkeyes.
Can we please have it completed by deer season 2022? Thank you.
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RyanAK
City-dweller
Once scalped…
Posts: 979
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Post by RyanAK on Apr 30, 2022 5:40:08 GMT -7
Oh, someday. I admire those with the drive, time, resources and skill to accomplish a true scratch build. Just starting from a slab would be ambitious for me at this point.
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