Shot Pouch, Cartridge Pouch, Shot Bag, Ball Bag, or what?
Jan 21, 2020 21:56:09 GMT -7
Keith, brokennock, and 1 more like this
Post by artificer on Jan 21, 2020 21:56:09 GMT -7
Folks, this is an endeavor I hope Spence, Keith, Blackhand and anyone else has more period documentation will chime in on what such things were called in the 18th century and perhaps what may be the more/most common terms for them? My intention is to get a more accurate description of items used to carry accoutrements for period arms and use those terms for such things as living histories.
I begin with military terminology of the 18th century, as I have studied that in more detail.
Bailey in his works describes British Ordnance called a “Cartridge Box” as a wooden block drilled for cartridges and covered with a leather flap, that was attached to the waist belt by two loops and worn in front of the body. (Today we usually call this the “Belly Box.”) British Ordnance called a “Cartridge Pouch” the shoulder slung Leather Pouch that contained a wooden block inside the pouch and drilled to retain the cartridges. Both these terms date from before or during the FIW. “Cartouch and Cartouche” were also used interchangeably with “Cartridge” in the documents of the British and notably by General Burgoyne as in the documentation in the following link:
62ndregiment.org/soldier_arms.htm
However, it seems there is some period documentation the Americans called the Shoulder Slung Cartridge Pouch by the term “Cartridge Box” during the AWI, though I don’t have the documentation readily at hand.
Both of the following two quotes and the footnotes under them come from “Of Sorts For Provincials” on pages 43 and 44……
June 1758 Colonel Henry Bouquet wrote to General Forbes,
“ I have noticed a great inconvenience in the use of cartridges for them (provincials). They do not know how to make cartridges or rather they take too much time. In the woods they seldom have time or places suitable to make them. These cartridge boxes hold only 9 charges, some 12 which is not sufficient. I think that their powder horns and pouches for carrying bullets would be much more useful, keeping the cartridge box however, to use in case of a sudden or night attack.”
Blackmore, British Military Firearms, Page 68
“Shot bags” or “Shot Pouches” were small leathern or linen canvas bags used to carry bullets and smaller shot. Captain John Knox described them as “a leathern, or seal’s skin bag, buckled round their waist, which hangs down before, contains bullets, and a smaller shot, of the size of full-grown peas, six or seven of which; with a ball they generally load.”
Captain John Knox’s Journal, July 12-13, 1757 page 34
Some info on the British Officer, Captain Knox, mentioned above. I think this is important to mention because he was a true British Regular Officer in North America and not a Provincial Officer, who may have described these pouches differently as was normally done here? I imagine these pouches were used with leather belts around the waist?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Knox_%28British_Army_officer%29
The following information comes from “Small Arms of the British Forces in America 1664–1815” by Bailey and on pages 260-1.
"The use of loose powder and ball, the former carried in a powder horn, was widespread in British service in America, especially amongst the locally raised troops including militia, Provincial battalions, light infantry and ranger companies.
Fort Edward, New York, 1 June 1757:
“A Return of ye Two Ranging Companys to Be Given In immediately to ye Commanding Offr Making Mention of ye Condition of their Arms, Powder Horns, Shot Bags and Tomahawks”
When a light infantry company was Established for each line regiment in the British Army in 1771, part of their new equipment included a powder horn on a shoulder belt, a ball bag, waistbelt and tomahawk.
Part of the accoutrements for the 78th Highlanders raised in 1778 included for the rank and file:
(Note: I’m not including the entire list, only the things germane to this discussion.)
101 Ball Bags (Light Infantry) 1/3 ea.
5 Ball Bags 1/3"
I think the Ball Bags mentioned above can be explained in a quote from the 62nd Regimental website above where it mentioned:
"n addition, according to the light infantry uniform regulations of 4 March 1771, light infantry soldier accoutrements provided by the colonels of regiments were to consist of "a small cartridge box to contain 9 rounds in one row, to be worn before with a belt of tanned leather round the waist," and a powder horn and leather ball-bag for "running ball" firing."
To me, this demonstrates that “Ball Bags” worn on the waistbelt, were clearly intended primarily to carry balls and smaller shot and little or nothing else.
OK, what I don’t feel comfortable with and may still be a little confused about is the common terms someone who was not in the military would use in the 18th century. So I have some numbered questions/points I hope to gain more discussion/knowledge/documentation on.
1. The first question I have is what was the most common 18th century term/s for what we today might call a “Hunting Pouch,” or “Hunting Bag,” or “Possibles Pouch” in the mid 19th century? I think I remember Spence writing it was “Shot Pouch” and/or “Shot Bag, though I may be mistaken?”
2. OK, so what was the period term when in essence they took the shoulder belts/straps off a Shot Pouch and attached it to a belt instead? Some today refer to this as a “Belt Pouch,” but was that the period term for it and do we have documentation for it?
3. Was the period term “Ball Bags” also used by civilians to describe a small belt pouch that contained both larger round ball and smaller shot for smaller game?
4. OK, this one can really be confusing, at least to me and especially since in the 18th century their use of the term “Shot” interchangeably included either round ball, smaller shot for small game and/or both. Were the rather long leather pouches, normally worn over the shoulder and were either single or double pouches with Brass Measuring or Adjustable Heads, also called “Shot Pouches?” The more common modern term for these carriers of Shot is a “Single or Double Shot Snake.”
5. Originally when I began this post, I thought also to ask about smaller bags/pouches used to store things inside the larger “Shot Pouches” or “Shot Bags” would be called. For instance, a small pouch used to store what we would call “bird shot,” might be called a “Small Shot Pouch or Bag.” A small pouch used to store larger balls might have been called either a “Ball Bag” or “Shot Bag.” However, I wonder if such nomenclature distinctions would have been up to each user, rather than any kind of a recognizable pattern in the period?
Gus
I begin with military terminology of the 18th century, as I have studied that in more detail.
Bailey in his works describes British Ordnance called a “Cartridge Box” as a wooden block drilled for cartridges and covered with a leather flap, that was attached to the waist belt by two loops and worn in front of the body. (Today we usually call this the “Belly Box.”) British Ordnance called a “Cartridge Pouch” the shoulder slung Leather Pouch that contained a wooden block inside the pouch and drilled to retain the cartridges. Both these terms date from before or during the FIW. “Cartouch and Cartouche” were also used interchangeably with “Cartridge” in the documents of the British and notably by General Burgoyne as in the documentation in the following link:
62ndregiment.org/soldier_arms.htm
However, it seems there is some period documentation the Americans called the Shoulder Slung Cartridge Pouch by the term “Cartridge Box” during the AWI, though I don’t have the documentation readily at hand.
Both of the following two quotes and the footnotes under them come from “Of Sorts For Provincials” on pages 43 and 44……
June 1758 Colonel Henry Bouquet wrote to General Forbes,
“ I have noticed a great inconvenience in the use of cartridges for them (provincials). They do not know how to make cartridges or rather they take too much time. In the woods they seldom have time or places suitable to make them. These cartridge boxes hold only 9 charges, some 12 which is not sufficient. I think that their powder horns and pouches for carrying bullets would be much more useful, keeping the cartridge box however, to use in case of a sudden or night attack.”
Blackmore, British Military Firearms, Page 68
“Shot bags” or “Shot Pouches” were small leathern or linen canvas bags used to carry bullets and smaller shot. Captain John Knox described them as “a leathern, or seal’s skin bag, buckled round their waist, which hangs down before, contains bullets, and a smaller shot, of the size of full-grown peas, six or seven of which; with a ball they generally load.”
Captain John Knox’s Journal, July 12-13, 1757 page 34
Some info on the British Officer, Captain Knox, mentioned above. I think this is important to mention because he was a true British Regular Officer in North America and not a Provincial Officer, who may have described these pouches differently as was normally done here? I imagine these pouches were used with leather belts around the waist?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Knox_%28British_Army_officer%29
The following information comes from “Small Arms of the British Forces in America 1664–1815” by Bailey and on pages 260-1.
"The use of loose powder and ball, the former carried in a powder horn, was widespread in British service in America, especially amongst the locally raised troops including militia, Provincial battalions, light infantry and ranger companies.
Fort Edward, New York, 1 June 1757:
“A Return of ye Two Ranging Companys to Be Given In immediately to ye Commanding Offr Making Mention of ye Condition of their Arms, Powder Horns, Shot Bags and Tomahawks”
When a light infantry company was Established for each line regiment in the British Army in 1771, part of their new equipment included a powder horn on a shoulder belt, a ball bag, waistbelt and tomahawk.
Part of the accoutrements for the 78th Highlanders raised in 1778 included for the rank and file:
(Note: I’m not including the entire list, only the things germane to this discussion.)
101 Ball Bags (Light Infantry) 1/3 ea.
5 Ball Bags 1/3"
I think the Ball Bags mentioned above can be explained in a quote from the 62nd Regimental website above where it mentioned:
"n addition, according to the light infantry uniform regulations of 4 March 1771, light infantry soldier accoutrements provided by the colonels of regiments were to consist of "a small cartridge box to contain 9 rounds in one row, to be worn before with a belt of tanned leather round the waist," and a powder horn and leather ball-bag for "running ball" firing."
To me, this demonstrates that “Ball Bags” worn on the waistbelt, were clearly intended primarily to carry balls and smaller shot and little or nothing else.
OK, what I don’t feel comfortable with and may still be a little confused about is the common terms someone who was not in the military would use in the 18th century. So I have some numbered questions/points I hope to gain more discussion/knowledge/documentation on.
1. The first question I have is what was the most common 18th century term/s for what we today might call a “Hunting Pouch,” or “Hunting Bag,” or “Possibles Pouch” in the mid 19th century? I think I remember Spence writing it was “Shot Pouch” and/or “Shot Bag, though I may be mistaken?”
2. OK, so what was the period term when in essence they took the shoulder belts/straps off a Shot Pouch and attached it to a belt instead? Some today refer to this as a “Belt Pouch,” but was that the period term for it and do we have documentation for it?
3. Was the period term “Ball Bags” also used by civilians to describe a small belt pouch that contained both larger round ball and smaller shot for smaller game?
4. OK, this one can really be confusing, at least to me and especially since in the 18th century their use of the term “Shot” interchangeably included either round ball, smaller shot for small game and/or both. Were the rather long leather pouches, normally worn over the shoulder and were either single or double pouches with Brass Measuring or Adjustable Heads, also called “Shot Pouches?” The more common modern term for these carriers of Shot is a “Single or Double Shot Snake.”
5. Originally when I began this post, I thought also to ask about smaller bags/pouches used to store things inside the larger “Shot Pouches” or “Shot Bags” would be called. For instance, a small pouch used to store what we would call “bird shot,” might be called a “Small Shot Pouch or Bag.” A small pouch used to store larger balls might have been called either a “Ball Bag” or “Shot Bag.” However, I wonder if such nomenclature distinctions would have been up to each user, rather than any kind of a recognizable pattern in the period?
Gus
