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Post by brokennock on Jan 22, 2020 18:39:40 GMT -7
James Audubon, c1810, describing his host preparing to go raccoon hunting: "… He blows through his rifle to ascertain that it is clear, examines his flint, and thrusts a feather into the touch-hole. To a leathern bag swung at his side is attached a powder-horn; his sheath-knife is there also; below hangs a narrow strip of homespun linen. He takes from his bag a bullet, pulls with his teeth the wooden stopper from his powder-horn, lays the ball in one hand, and with the other pours the powder upon it until it is just overtopped. Raising the horn to his mouth, he again closes it with the stopper, and restores it to its place. He introduces the powder into the tube; springs the box of his gun, greases the "patch" over with some melted tallow, or damps it; then places it on the honey-combed muzzle of his piece. The bullet is placed on the patch over the bore, and pressed with the handle of the knife, which now trims the edge of the linen. The elastic hickory rod, held with both hands, smoothly pushes the ball to its bed; once, twice, thrice has it rebounded. The rifle leaps as it were into the hunters arms, the feather is drawn from the touch-hole, the powder fills the pan, which is closed. “Now I’m ready,” cries the woodsman…. Journals, Vol. 2, (1972 reprint), page 492. Gus m Very interesting to note the woodsman did several things I would not thought of the Old boys doing: using a feather in the touch hole before loading instead of picking after, NOT using a powder measure and using both hands to work the wiping stick I didn't make up the practice of leaving my touch hole plugged while loading on my own. But, since I read this a few years ago, and adopted the practice, I've not had a misfire of any kind since. Oh, and I dare you to lick your flint clean like Audubon's deer hunter did. On video for proof. Lol.
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Post by brokennock on Jan 22, 2020 18:52:24 GMT -7
From one of Spence's posts from Audubon, Describing a “true hunter” or still hunter after deer:
“His dress, you observe, consists of a leather hunting-shirt, and a pair of trousers of the same material. His feet are moccasined; he wears a belt around his waist; his heavy rifle is resting on his brawny shoulder; on one side hangs his ball pouch, surmounted by the horn of an ancient Buffalo, once the terror of the herd, but now containing a pound of the best gunpowder; his butcher knife is scabbarded in the same strap; and behind is a tomahawk, the handle of which has been thrust through his girdle….He stops, looks to the flint of his gun, its priming, and the leather cover of the lock, then glances his eye towards the sky, to judge of the course most likely to lead him to the game....‘He has reached the declivity, upon which the sun shines in all its growing splendor; but mark him! he takes the gun from his shoulder, has already thrown aside the leathern cover of the lock, and is wiping the edge of the flint with his tongue."
Episode Deer Hunting"
We have our 1st reference for this discussion to a "ball pouch." Though I am confused as to whether it hangs at his side from his "girdle" (belt or sash?) or from his shoulder, given the description that his butcher knife "is scabbard in the same strap," but after making mention of the horn surmounting the pouch. Is the knife on a shoulder strap for a shoulder slung bag (this is the direction I lean) or is the bag and knife on a belt around the waist. I lean towards the bag, horn, and knife, hanging from the shoulder due to the further description of the hawk handle bring thrust through the girdle, which is not mentioned in the description of the bag "hanging at his side."
Of course, I do believe this is a little later period than we were initially seeking. But it's a start.
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Post by artificer on Jan 22, 2020 21:54:09 GMT -7
Spence,
Thank you for chiming in.
So, it seems the term "ball bag" was one used primarily or possibly exclusively by the Military in the 18th century to describe a bag/pouch worn usually on the issue waistbelt and for ball and possibly smaller "buck shot?"
Good point on the use of the period term "belt," which could also mean what we might call a "shoulder belt" or "cross belts" in the Military to suspend accoutrements from the shoulder, along with civilian usage.
I have often wondered how much military terminology would have been commonly "transferred from" the Military to Civilian usage and that includes on accoutrements. Unlike modern times and for most of the 18th century, most men were subject to militia training. That training followed British Military standards, at least loosely, because until the end of the AWI - they were British Americans. Those on the frontier would likely have followed British Military traditions the least, to not at all, depending on where they were at and the time period. However, those who moved from the East to the Frontier as adults, more than likely had some Military Militia training and thus some familiarity with Military Terminology. Further, even those who had been born and grew up on the frontier, would have been "familiarized" with Military terminology when they joined military expeditions of many sorts over the decades of the 18th century.
As such, I suggest that there most likely was at least some blending of military terms in civilian life and even on the frontier.
Gus
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Post by artificer on Jan 22, 2020 22:04:03 GMT -7
James Audubon, c1810, describing his host preparing to go raccoon hunting: "… He blows through his rifle to ascertain that it is clear, examines his flint, and thrusts a feather into the touch-hole. To a leathern bag swung at his side is attached a powder-horn; his sheath-knife is there also; below hangs a narrow strip of homespun linen. He takes from his bag a bullet, pulls with his teeth the wooden stopper from his powder-horn, lays the ball in one hand, and with the other pours the powder upon it until it is just overtopped. Raising the horn to his mouth, he again closes it with the stopper, and restores it to its place. He introduces the powder into the tube; springs the box of his gun, greases the "patch" over with some melted tallow, or damps it; then places it on the honey-combed muzzle of his piece. The bullet is placed on the patch over the bore, and pressed with the handle of the knife, which now trims the edge of the linen. The elastic hickory rod, held with both hands, smoothly pushes the ball to its bed; once, twice, thrice has it rebounded. The rifle leaps as it were into the hunters arms, the feather is drawn from the touch-hole, the powder fills the pan, which is closed. “Now I’m ready,” cries the woodsman…. Journals, Vol. 2, (1972 reprint), page 492. Gus Thanks Gus. That's the one I was thinking of, though it turns out to be no help to us here. My fragmented memory (can one "defrag" their brain, like a hard drive?) seems to recall a similar description of Dan Boone loading his gun, but I could be confusing myself with the quote you already gave. You are most welcome. Yes, I also wish it better described the "leathern bag." This quote probably deserves more discussion for a number of reasons, but I will leave that to another thread/time. Gus
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Post by artificer on Jan 22, 2020 22:40:34 GMT -7
Don't know about the ball bags with the heavy leather mouths, but are you referring to the leather flasks for shot with the brass heads in the latter question? Gus No, not for bird shot just leather flasks, some with a leather spout molded to the desired caliber I'm sorry I cannot give direct documentation, however, I can give possible indirect documentation, especially for " the spout molded to the desired caliber." First as to molded flasks, though generally water flasks fell out of usage after the 17th century, 18th century period leather makers never forgot how to mold leather to make flasks or other items. The answer to "the spout molded to the desired caliber" was completely possible in the period, though I have no direct documentation for it. Of course they had no precision measuring instruments, but they did some amazing things with calipers in the 18th century and to a degree that has not been seen much since shortly after the turn of the 20th century. They could easily have used the calipers to "comparatively measure" the balls and then opened the calipers slightly to measure a turned wooden dowel or whittled stick that was used to form the spout and of course make a slightly larger stopper. However, even period calipers would not have been absolutely required to measure the balls and form the spout, as something "close enough" was quite possible to be down by eye and comparing the balls to the dowel/stick to form the spout. Gus
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Post by artificer on Jan 22, 2020 23:00:16 GMT -7
In the 18th century these terms were all interchangeable, just as they are today. This obviously makes it difficult to tell whether the person is talking about a small drawstring bag to hold shot, or if they are talking about a shot bag that one hangs from the shoulder. The latter I always refer to as a shot pouch, but of course this could also refer to a small pouch for holding shot. Keith. Keith, Thank you. That's what I thought, but wasn't sure. Like you, I prefer Shot Pouch to describe the bag that hangs from the shoulder and in part as it "blends" somewhat with the military term "Cartouche/Cartridge Pouch" that goes over the shoulder as well and that helps me remember it. When I first began doing a Private Soldier in the Major's Coy of the 42nd Royal Highland Regiment, the Black Watch, I had to sort of "break" myself into referring to the "Belly Box" as it is popularly known today, to the period term "Cartridge Box" that was worn on the waist belt. I also think I will use the term "bag" for a ball bag or "small shot bag" that go inside the Shot Pouch. Gus
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Keith
City-dweller
Bushfire close but safe now. Getting some good rain.
Posts: 990
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Post by Keith on Jan 22, 2020 23:11:17 GMT -7
This is a plains Indian (Sioux) Possibles Bag. They are quite large & carried on a travois. Keith.
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Post by artificer on Jan 23, 2020 7:31:43 GMT -7
Keith,
Not trying to argue, but I have to ask if that is a parfleche instead of a possibles pouch?
Gus
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Post by Sicilianhunter on Jan 23, 2020 8:29:39 GMT -7
"Oh, and I dare you to lick your flint clean like Audubon's deer hunter did. On video for proof. Lol." -*BrokenNock*
LMAO I'd pay a dollar to see that!!
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Post by spence on Jan 23, 2020 10:50:38 GMT -7
Do you mean you guys haven't learned to do that yet? Well, I can see it's time for some mentoring. I'm sure all the old, experienced hands learned to do that long ago and would recommend it to all you youngsters. It will put an end to those pesky flashes in the pan, or as they were referred to in the day, 'burning powder'. What's not to like?
It is testified to in plain language in primary documentation, in this very thread.
You needn't be afraid to touch your tongue to the flint for fear of germs, the flash of the prime, at almost 4000 degrees, sterilizes the whole cock, flint and frizzen.
It doesn't taste bad, after all, the old boys were known to use unburnt black powder in leu of salt when the need arose.
It is a lot quicker than fumbling for a cloth, wetting it, wiping the flint, returning the cloth...sort of eliminates the middle man.
You will hardly ever cut your tongue.
Try it, you'll like it. And let us know how all this mentoring worked out for you.
Glad to help.
Spence
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Post by artificer on Jan 23, 2020 11:46:08 GMT -7
Is that the original "tongue in cheek instead of on the frizzen?" Got to admit I never tried licking my frizzen, but I was taught to lick my thumb and use that to clean the frizzen. However, when firing many rounds with a Brown Bess in re-enacting, I never needed to clean the frizzen in between shots. Gus
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Keith
City-dweller
Bushfire close but safe now. Getting some good rain.
Posts: 990
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Post by Keith on Jan 23, 2020 14:04:24 GMT -7
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Post by artificer on Jan 23, 2020 16:07:04 GMT -7
Keith, Not trying to argue, but I have to ask if that is a parfleche instead of a possibles pouch? Gus As far as I am aware Gus, they are one & the same thing, they come in box & bag form. Keith. Keith, This takes me back to the late 70's when we and another couple had a full size lodge and used Laubin's book for documentation. If the first pouch (with quill work) you showed was made of brain tanned skin, then it was not a parfleche to my knowledge. Parfleches were made from dried, but untanned skins, so they would hold their semi rigid box or "envelope" shapes. Now that info may be out of date nowadays, but that used to be the distinction. Gus
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Post by brokennock on Jan 24, 2020 0:31:56 GMT -7
Do you mean you guys haven't learned to do that yet? Well, I can see it's time for some mentoring. I'm sure all the old, experienced hands learned to do that long ago and would recommend it to all you youngsters. It will put an end to those pesky flashes in the pan, or as they were referred to in the day, 'burning powder'. What's not to like? It is testified to in plain language in primary documentation, in this very thread. You needn't be afraid to touch your tongue to the flint for fear of germs, the flash of the prime, at almost 4000 degrees, sterilizes the whole cock, flint and frizzen. It doesn't taste bad, after all, the old boys were known to use unburnt black powder in leu of salt when the need arose. It is a lot quicker than fumbling for a cloth, wetting it, wiping the flint, returning the cloth...sort of eliminates the middle man. You will hardly ever cut your tongue. Try it, you'll like it. And let us know how all this mentoring worked out for you. Glad to help. Spence They didn't have germs in the flintlock era, so not worried about those. Might get sick from bad air or vapors, but what's a germ? Cutting ones tongue on the flint, that's more of a concern, cut my tongue licking a knife clean, once, don't want to repeat it. I'm pretty sure the sulphury burnt powder residue doesn't taste as good as the fresh stuff used to season food and make tea. Also, with my luck, while my tongue is in front of the flint, this will be the one time my lock doesn't hold at half cock....
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Post by artificer on Jan 24, 2020 10:28:18 GMT -7
Just don't forget the chronological order to lick the frizzen "by the numbers." Step One. Do NOT cock the flint to half cock after firing, leave it in the forward and down position. Step Two. Lick Frizzen and wipe with sleeve as necessary. Step Three: Prepare and load next powder charge...…...….. However, with military training to half cock the cock after firing, even your own musket can be dangerous when licking the frizzen. Gus
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