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Post by artificer on May 21, 2022 11:59:05 GMT -7
OK, I was working on adding some more possible 18th century pouches to the list, but perhaps it is time to address the Numbers 1. and 2. British made ball pouches/ball bags in my first post, since Nock and Ryan both brought some things up on them. First of all, I have not had the pleasure of examining the original pieces, so some or most of my speculation may be wrong. OK, I think folks may have missed these two pouches appear to be wet formed to give greater internal space to rather small pouches. Wet forming leather was well known by this period and means the top or front part of the pouch is wetted and worked over a form when wet. When the leather dries, it keeps this molded shape until once again soaked and formed into some other shape. To give folks an idea, the included pic shows the leather after it was wetted, worked over the wooden forms, allowed to dry and now is being cut before the back is sewn on. st3.depositphotos.com/3940641/17817/i/950/depositphotos_178175406-stock-photo-wet-forming-leather-photo-made.jpgCuir bouilli or boiled leather was also associated with this kind of leather work and these two pouches MAY have also been so treated. I admit I don't totally understand the process as much as I have researched it, but after the wet forming they somehow baked the leather in an oven so it would retain the shape even after it got wet. Leather Sword Scabbards in earlier through later periods were so treated, as were a number of other leather items. Further Numbers 1. and 2. appear to be smaller than period Sporting Belt Pouches we see in Sporting Images. They also seem to downright require an outer leather belt to support them. This leads me to the speculation, if not the outright heresy, that these two pouches are NOT belt pouches at all, in the manner we normally expect them. OK, if this theory is correct, what can they be? John Knox's journal mentions the use of buckshot by rangers, added to a standard military load in the F&I. Bailey mentions British Soldiers using "ball bags" worn on their belts and to carry buck shot to add to their cartridges. I'm thinking Numbers 1. and 2. are examples of those ball bags carried by both British and British American forces. Gus |
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Post by paranger on May 21, 2022 12:12:01 GMT -7
The Lemuel Lyman pouch has decorative tooling on it, which pretty well convinces me that it started life as a civilian accoutrement pressed into provincial service.
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Post by artificer on May 21, 2022 12:32:15 GMT -7
The Lemuel Lyman pouch has decorative tooling on it, which pretty well convinces me that it started life as a civilian accoutrement pressed into provincial service. The decorative tooling is indeed important, but does it automatically make it's original intended use by civilians? What about for Officers to carry buck shot for their Officer's Fusil? Gus |
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Post by paranger on May 21, 2022 12:33:04 GMT -7
The Lemuel Lyman pouch has decorative tooling on it, which pretty well convinces me that it started life as a civilian accoutrement pressed into provincial service. The decorative tooling is indeed important, but does it automatically make it's original intended use by civilians? What about for Officers to carry buck shot for their Officer's Fusil? Gus But Lyman wasn't an officer... |
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Post by artificer on May 21, 2022 12:37:42 GMT -7
The decorative tooling is indeed important, but does it automatically make it's original intended use by civilians? What about for Officers to carry buck shot for their Officer's Fusil? Gus But Lyman wasn't an officer... Good Point. I wonder if he was a man of some means? Here is something about the type of decoration on the pouch. www.southunionmills.com/repro-lyman-shot-bags/Gus |
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Post by artificer on May 21, 2022 12:53:40 GMT -7
There are other pouches/bags from the Tom Wnuck estate. <button disabled="" class="c-attachment-insert--linked o-btn--sm">Attachment Deleted</button> <button disabled="" class="c-attachment-insert--linked o-btn--sm">Attachment Deleted</button> <button disabled="" class="c-attachment-insert--linked o-btn--sm">Attachment Deleted</button> Spence Those are great. I'm wondering if TC Albert got his designs from that collection for his book "Recreating the 18th Century Hunting Pouch?" Gus |
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Post by artificer on May 21, 2022 13:03:21 GMT -7
The belt pouch looks like it would be a good match for shooting shot. Powder horn, shot flask on a sling, and belt pouch with card, wadding, odds and ends. Yep, Powder Horn or Flask, Shot Snake and this small belt pouch for carrying felt or leather wads, tow and perhaps a turnscrew and a few flints. Maybe a few bore size balls as well. Gus |
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Post by spence on May 21, 2022 13:15:38 GMT -7
An OT but tangential point just occurred to me. I've looked at a lot of photos of surviving hunting pouches over the years, in Madison Grant, posted in various forums, discussions such as this, etc. and the horns accompanying them are mostly all dead plain, and generally pretty crudely made. Even fancy pouches don't usually seem to have a fancy horn. Does anyone else have that impression?
Spence
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Post by paranger on May 21, 2022 13:44:51 GMT -7
An OT but tangential point just occurred to me. I've looked at a lot of photos of surviving hunting pouches over the years, in Madison Grant, posted in various forums, discussions such as this, etc. and the horns accompanying them are mostly all dead plain, and generally pretty crudely made. Even fancy pouches don't usually seem to have a fancy horn. Does anyone else have that impression? Spence Definitely. I think all these engrailed and highly scrimshawed "F&I" horns folks are sporting are largely hooey. The vast proportion of working horns that survive despite long use seem to support this. I have a Rev War horn with known provenance to a major, and another to a captain in Washington's Lifeguards, and both are about as plain as can be, other than their carved initials (one of which looks like a third grader did it). |
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RyanAK
City-dweller
Once scalped…
Posts: 979
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Post by RyanAK on May 21, 2022 13:49:51 GMT -7
The belt pouch looks like it would be a good match for shooting shot. Powder horn, shot flask on a sling, and belt pouch with card, wadding, odds and ends. Yep, Powder Horn or Flask, Shot Snake and this small belt pouch for carrying felt or leather wads, tow and perhaps a turnscrew and a few flints. Maybe a few bore size balls as well. Gus Absolutely. I’ll have a shot flask finished next week. I’ll make a matching belt pouch. paranger made me the perfect ball pouch for shooting round ball. Need a simple horn. And… you know. A flintlock. 🙄 |
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Post by artificer on May 21, 2022 14:25:13 GMT -7
I wonder, too, if there’s precedent for civilian use of a cartouche box. Something like a 9-round box on the belly with cartridges like ‘nock described for a squirrel or bird hunt would be handy. Also for rangering or a scout when the need arises. Probably unlikely in Pennsylvania but maybe in the provinces with milita laws? That seems like a straightforward project as well. I’ll go through my files, but there are so few of these surviving, I’m not likely to be able to add any additional images. OK, I admit to having some serious bias here from a lot of experimental archeology or experience from using a Cartouche Box when I did Black Watch. Even though I still had a pretty flat belly when I began with The Watch, I soon learned to LOATHE using them and wishing I could change history that we had been equipped with Cartouche Pouches (slung over the shoulder) instead. Militia Laws rarely specified HOW powder and ball were to be carried, though the minimum quantities expected to be carried were often laid out in the laws. Cartouche Boxes were used by some militia in some campaigns, though normally issued from colonial stores or colonial purchases for the campaign/s. Gus |
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Post by brokennock on May 21, 2022 16:51:06 GMT -7
Looks great! We’re on the same page. Wet-formed is what I meant by rigid. The recreated pouch in Gus’s original post looks soft and flat-ish, while the original looks to have some structure. Yours really looks good. And I happen to have some 6oz veg tan. 😎 That "Lyman" style pouch I made is probably 4oz at best. |
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Post by brokennock on May 21, 2022 16:52:58 GMT -7
... OK, I think folks may have missed these two pouches appear to be wet formed to give greater internal space to rather small pouches. .... Gus Um, I think I specifically said they were wet formed or wet molded, pick your term, and even provided pics of the process. |
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Post by spence on May 21, 2022 18:01:12 GMT -7
Members who have been around a while will remember a thread about a possible original bag marked 1777, with a few pictures. It had some very interesting features. I never heard whether it was authenticated. Hope this link works. minuteman.boards.net/thread/443/original-1777-bagSpence |
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Post by paranger on May 21, 2022 18:05:06 GMT -7
Members who have been around a while will remember a thread about a possible original bag marked 1777, with a few pictures. It had some very interesting features. I never heard whether it was authenticated. Hope this link works. minuteman.boards.net/thread/443/original-1777-bagSpence That is a really interesting bag. Stylistically, it reminds me more of a bag from the first - or even second- quarter of the 19th c. It would indeed be interesting to hear the full provenance. |
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