18th Century Original Shot Pouches and Ball Bags/Pouches

Oh boy, sorry about the arthritis.

It seems there was somewhat of a thriving industry during the FIW of Horners and some Scrimshanders providing fancy engraved horns as "Reminders of Military Adventure" or Trophies of War.  It seems they were especially desired by Junior British Officers serving here and some British American Officers as well.  Some were purchased during the War and some were purchased shortly before the Officers left to return back home, either to other Colonies or to Great Britain, to show where they had served or campaigned.  I got this information from Horners and some collectors articles I've read over the years. 

Think about it, the average person didn't have time to waste on doing a lot of even semi professional scrimshanding and there was no need to do much or any engraving on your own horn you always kept with you.  

However, for those on military campaign in both the FIW and AWI, at least some scrimshanding/engraving had to be done to identify the horn to every owner.  This because they didn't stand in long lines to receive their powder issue, rather some soldiers were detailed to collect the horns of their messmates/other soldiers and bring them to the Artillery to have them filled.  Then the horns were returned to the other soldiers who had spent the time in drill or other camp chores.  (The Artillery was always responsible for keeping/storing/issuing all powder and even cartridge making supplies for the Infantry and British Americans and later Patriot American forces did the same thing when Artillery was around.  If there was no Artillery, then the Quartermaster's did it.)  If anyone in camp had any experience or artistic ability to do this scrimshanding, they were detailed to do for their unit.  Now some were better than others and when no such talented person was available, the soldiers themselves did it, so some "ID" engraving was pretty crude.  Didn't matter as long as the horn could be identified back to the owner.  

Some simpler scrimshanding/engraving was also done on some horns of common soldiers at the end of campaigns or battles/wars won, again as a sort of "Remembrance of the Military Service."


Gus

OK, heading back more to the original idea of this thread.  Grin.  

Not just here, but in other places I've read there were anywhere between 4 to maybe 8 Shot Pouches that have had their provenance proven and or other evidence that showed they were actually 18th century pouches and are accepted by most folks this is historically and period correct.  I actually don't know the exact number and which Shot Pouches fall into this category.  So, I have some questions I hope others here can help with?  

OK, there are two (2) Ball Bags or waist belt pouches and three (3) Shot Pouches (with straps) listed in order from the 18th century material culture site, before the last two Shot Pouches from the Estate of Tom Winuck.  Are the first five (5) items considered more or less definite 18th century made with the final two as "maybe's?" Or are all 7 items considered as having definitely been made in the 18th century?  

Not sure where to put this, so I will note that of the 7 items above, 6 definitely appear to have been professionally made.  Does this have any meaning for who might have used them and even how they were used?  

Are there other Shot Pouches that are not listed on the 18th century material culture site and have been proven or accepted as definite 18th century?

Thanks to Spence for adding other pouches from the Estate of Tom Winuck.  Have any of these Shot Pouches, other than the Queen's Ranger Pouch, passed muster for definitely being 18th century by historians?  Or perhaps have the two pieces from the Winuck Estate shown on the 18th century material culture, are the only two (besides the Queen's Ranger Pouch) that are definite or at least "maybes" for the 18th century?  

Thanks again to Spence, as I just did an archeological dig and found my copy of "The Kentucky Rifle Hunting Pouch" by Madison Grant.  Now I will now see if some of the Shot Pouches from the Estate of Tom Winuck are shown in his section on 18th century pouches.   I know Grant's methods of dating the pouches in his book have been somewhat to severely questioned, so I thought it would be interesting to do this.

Oh, I'm sort of side stepping the Native American Pouch listed in "The Kentucky Rifle Hunting Pouch" and very close to the one worn by Major Robert Rogers in his portrait shown below.  However, I am curious if this is one of the pouches everyone talks about being one of the few 18th century extant Shot pouches?

2.bp.blogspot.com/_-HE1lR1mlb8/TRg4vqH9ucI/AAAAAAAADxg/y2yqglqfQjg/s1600/RobertRogers.jpg


Finally, is there/are there any documented 18th century, civilian owned/used pouches not listed so far?  If so, where can one find out more information on it or them?  

Gus 

Spence,

Thank you for your thoughts.  

Man, it would be great if we had Tom Winuck's thoughts or if he kept a record of his collection as to what he believed each piece was and why.  I don't doubt the items he purchased were original/authentic, but I think we may be jumping to conclusions if we believe they were all 18th century.  IOW, though I'm sure he treasured each piece, there is the real chance many, if not most of them are 19th century and that was what he believed them to be.  

Speaking of his collection, let's look again at the following picture for the pouch on the left.

i.pinimg.com/originals/ff/ae/1c/ffae1cd248e815672df6cd4b9e381bde.jpg

IF this is a civilian Shot Pouch and IF it is 18th century, it sure tends to blow the theory out of the water that all or most 18th century civilian Shot Pouches are small/minimalist.  That's a BIG Pouch with a WIDE Shoulder Strap!!  I also believe it to be the product of at least a semi professional, if not a professional leather worker. 

Now IF this is a civilian Shot Pouch, it may have been one used by a market hunter and that would explain the size.  It may also have been for someone who did a lot of "shooting flying" and he may have kept his bird shot in a smaller bag inside this pouch along with everything else needed for a day of extended shooting.  

Actually, I'm not so sure this is a civilian shot pouch at all.  I would not be surprised if it is a civilian made Cartouche Pouch for Militia use, especially after Congress passed the Federal/National Militia acts of 1792-4 and a LOT of people were scrambling for arms and accoutrements to be in compliance with those laws.  THEN later in it's working life, someone added the knife holder, because it is not professionally done and not to the same standards/quality as the rest of the pouch  


Gus

Great discussion and thoughts, all. This is a new bag for me, and I’m examining photos on my phone, but I tend to agree that it’s likely a home brew. Those of us that have done a few stitches in leather know that non-professionals can do clean work, but the details are telling. As paranger points out, the buckles and non-reinforced buttonhole are details that someone in the trade wouldn’t overlook. 

It also points to the knowledge that can be gained by trying to faithfully reproduce an original. There’s value in making a bench copy down to each detail. Some “Ah ha!” moments and quite a few “Why in the world…?” instances as well. I’ve had that experience in copying classic bamboo fly rods. 

I wonder how many cloth bags were made that never survived or how many rural hunters used their pockets. 

Don't be thrown by the hemp webbing. It was used for all sorts of things, including period upholstery. Pictured is the horse-hair seat of one of my 18th c. Chairs. There are several examples of pouches with 2"+ hemp straps in Albert and Grant's books.

I can tell you from experience that making a leather strap of appropriate functional lenght requires (56"+ counting sewing, buckle installation, room for adjustment) either access to a large hide, or splicing together two pieces.

I don't necessarily think the modern engineering design approach (i.e., pounds per square inch load to strap width ratios) was in play here.

As for the cartridge box speculation, I agree that it is questionable. That said, the dimensions (welted, ungusseted) of my copy could accept the single row tin tube type dragoon cartridge configuration of say, 9-12 rounds perhaps, depending on caliber?

Hemp webbing… I’ll check later and confirm, but I believe “Cloth and Costume” notes hemp webbing as being readily available through merchants and even small ‘sorta’ stores in “Old” Cumberland County, Pennsylvania fairly early. 2” seems to have been in use for quite a few things.