RyanAK
City-dweller
Once scalped…
Posts: 979
|
Post by RyanAK on May 24, 2022 14:36:21 GMT -7
Pararanger's post in the tavern section reminded of the following pouch, though it is a portrait. I'm quoting his description: This image is a portrait of Sir Edward Hales, Baronet of Hales Place, Hockington, Kent, by Phillippe Mercier c. 1744 housed at the Yale Center of British Art. 3.bp.blogspot.com/-lW2IMVkKWWk/VyPNet8rBkI/AAAAAAABnIs/UGPPDV34TEMYSfQXrHGsC6ONqIjEfoqUACLcB/s1600/9%2B-%2B00165.jpgHere is obviously a VERY wealthy (at least by his clothing) member of the Nobility, which means he could afford the very best of Shot Pouches. The double pouch is shall we say rather unique in many ways and I'm assuming it was made by a professional Saddler or other Leather worker. Notice it has red banding/piping and at least one brass suspension ring, which shows professionals added things to pouches that amateurs did not. However, take a good look at the suspension strap. It looks downright simple/lower quality compared to the workmanship of the pouch and quite frankly if the portrait artist painted it accurately, it shows a MAJOR design flaw. I certainly would not expect a professional to put the buckle in that position where it would rub near the collar bone/upper torso whether the buckle was worn on the front or back. IOW, I would expect it to be further down one side of the strap where it wouldn't rub on his fine clothing. Also, there are no border lines or other decoration on the strap we might/would expect on a pouch made for a high end customer. Additionally, there is no sliding or fixed keeper to keep the end of the strap from curling or going astray. Now if the buckle was worn in the back, a curling end to the strap would not matter, but if worn in the front, it could get in the way. I am not saying this is so, but I'm wondering if the Shot Pouch was originally made as a belt pouch and then later converted to an over the shoulder strap pouch? Gus I did some digging and apparently the Saddler at Hales Place was removed from his position because of the strap on the baronet’s hunting bag and could only find work mucking stables in Kent. He died a pauper in 1750. That’s not true. What is true is that Gus found an interesting detail that, if painted accurately, sure does seem to depart from the other characteristics of that pouch. Good eye, Gus. paranger will likely be along to let us know what he learned when he recreated the bag. Interesting discussion, all. |
|
|
|
Post by brokennock on May 24, 2022 15:54:59 GMT -7
Pararanger's post in the tavern section reminded of the following pouch, though it is a portrait. I'm quoting his description: This image is a portrait of Sir Edward Hales, Baronet of Hales Place, Hockington, Kent, by Phillippe Mercier c. 1744 housed at the Yale Center of British Art. 3.bp.blogspot.com/-lW2IMVkKWWk/VyPNet8rBkI/AAAAAAABnIs/UGPPDV34TEMYSfQXrHGsC6ONqIjEfoqUACLcB/s1600/9%2B-%2B00165.jpgHere is obviously a VERY wealthy (at least by his clothing) member of the Nobility, which means he could afford the very best of Shot Pouches. The double pouch is shall we say rather unique in many ways and I'm assuming it was made by a professional Saddler or other Leather worker. Notice it has red banding/piping and at least one brass suspension ring, which shows professionals added things to pouches that amateurs did not. However, take a good look at the suspension strap. It looks downright simple/lower quality compared to the workmanship of the pouch and quite frankly if the portrait artist painted it accurately, it shows a MAJOR design flaw. I certainly would not expect a professional to put the buckle in that position where it would rub near the collar bone/upper torso whether the buckle was worn on the front or back. IOW, I would expect it to be further down one side of the strap where it wouldn't rub on his fine clothing. Also, there are no border lines or other decoration on the strap we might/would expect on a pouch made for a high end customer. Additionally, there is no sliding or fixed keeper to keep the end of the strap from curling or going astray. Now if the buckle was worn in the back, a curling end to the strap would not matter, but if worn in the front, it could get in the way. I am not saying this is so, but I'm wondering if the Shot Pouch was originally made as a belt pouch and then later converted to an over the shoulder strap pouch? Gus I still say it's a belt pouch slung on a belt large enough to be worn over the shoulder. Look at the orientation of the strap coming off the bag closest to the viewer, it look like if you held the strap horizontally it would be 90° to the bag, I feel like I see the other end of a tunnel loop opposite it on the bag. The strap would be able to slide through the tunnel loop in either direction allowing the buckle to be positioned where it is most comfortable. Also, being a painting, the bag could also be someone else's and be used as a prop for the picture. |
|
|
|
Post by artificer on May 25, 2022 4:36:45 GMT -7
I think you maybe onto something.
I'm not sure if that's a tunnel at the top rear of the pouch, but rather the strap itself laying across the top/back of the pouch and going through maybe the tiniest glimpse of a ring on the right side of the pouch, as seen from this view, or the left side of the rear of the pouch?
Also, it appears he has some kind of soft gaiters from the top of his shoes and going up and over the bottom of his breeches legs? Maybe to protect his fine stockings and ensure nothing gets between his stockings and his breech's legs?
Gus
|
|
|
|
Post by brokennock on May 25, 2022 6:43:41 GMT -7
I think you maybe onto something. I'm not sure if that's a tunnel at the top rear of the pouch, but rather the strap itself laying across the top/back of the pouch and going through maybe the tiniest glimpse of a ring on the right side of the pouch, as seen from this view, or the left side of the rear of the pouch? Also, it appears he has some kind of soft gaiters from the top of his shoes and going up and over the bottom of his breeches legs? Maybe to protect his fine stockings and ensure nothing gets between his stockings and his breech's legs? Gus I'm sorry, but absolutely nothing in this, or previous, discussion of this bag convinces me that there is a ring on the near corner of the bag. |
|
|
|
Post by hawkeyes on May 25, 2022 6:59:52 GMT -7
In the famous words of sir Bob Ross... "A painting is your world, you can imagine and create anything".
I find it hard to decipher certain details and aspects of paintings. IMO it leaves allot up to speculation at times, for me this is one of those.
|
|
|
|
Post by spence on May 25, 2022 7:01:06 GMT -7
Let there be big.  Spence |
|
|
|
Post by brokennock on May 25, 2022 7:32:55 GMT -7
I've blown it up before. The angles still look wrong, the strap width entering the attachment point looks wrong, and the back of the bag and strap coming off the other side look wrong for a bag built to be slung off the shoulder and attached with rings. Look at the way the strap pulls the far corner of the bag rearward and upward, toward the strap. A ring hung bag doesn't do that.
The dark line almost parallel to the red trim along the top of the bag look like either the strap running across it or the top of a belt loop that runs the full width of the bag, a "tunnel loop."
Also, if there were a ring at the near corner that the strap is attached to, the strap would remain vertical when the bag is hanging freely, and, more importantly, the straps face would remain on the same plane as the front of the bag.
|
|
|
|
Post by artificer on May 25, 2022 12:33:20 GMT -7
Here's something I've been thinking about for a while now that pertains to this subject and while I'm still comparing other pouches.
Is there documentation of tanned/finished cowhides being sent to frontier forts, settlements or trading posts before or during the FIW? If so, does it describe the cowhide leather? I'm not even beginning to hope for an ounce (oz.) weight (thickness) of the hides, though I'd love to see that, but maybe something like "for uppers of shoes/boots?" Maybe "harness leather" is the most I could hope for?
The reason I ask is I'm trying to get a handle on how possible it was for amateurs to make cowhide shot pouches on the frontiers in a sort of roundabout way. Since an amateur would not be expected to know how or have the tools to hand skive thicker harness leather down to shot pouch thickness, I think that would really lessen the possibility of many amateurs making cowhide pouches on the frontier. Yes, they could order a hide of the correct thickness from tanners or stores back east, so is there evidence of that?
Now Saddlers or other professionally trained leather workers were more likely to order/have on hand hides of the correct thickness, but I don't know if they would sell pieces of leather to amateurs, rather than whole or half hides?
Besides, with documentation of it being the norm for so many settlers having their own in-the-ground tan vats/holes and with other animal hides that would not need the leather generally thinned down to make shot pouches; it seems to me that most amateurs would use those hides instead of cowhide?
The above is a theory of mine, but I'm not saying it is written in stone.
Gus
|
|
|
|
Post by brokennock on May 25, 2022 16:34:12 GMT -7
That is an interesting question Gus. I'm also wondering if a few full or half hides and bends of varying thicknesses thought most likely to be useful would have been brought along by settlers heading west. I would imagine they would be cognizant of the possible/probable need for repairs to leather items.
|
|
|
|
Post by spence on May 25, 2022 17:01:59 GMT -7
That is an interesting question Gus. I'm also wondering if a few full or half hides and bends of varying thicknesses thought most likely to be useful would have been brought along by settlers heading west. I would imagine they would be cognizant of the possible/probable need for repairs to leather items. This is the only item I've ever collected which is even tangentially along those lines: "The moccasons in ordinary use cost but a few hours labor to make them. This was done by an instrument denominated a moccason awl, which was made of the backspring of an old clasp knife. This awl with its buckhorn handle was an appendage of every shot pouch strap, together with a roll of buckskin for mending the moccasons. This was the labor of almost every evening. They were sewed together and patched with deer skin thongs, or whangs, as they were commonly called." Spence |
|
|
|
Post by brokennock on May 25, 2022 17:05:30 GMT -7
That is an interesting question Gus. I'm also wondering if a few full or half hides and bends of varying thicknesses thought most likely to be useful would have been brought along by settlers heading west. I would imagine they would be cognizant of the possible/probable need for repairs to leather items. This is the only item I've ever collected which is even tangentially along those lines: "The moccasons in ordinary use cost but a few hours labor to make them. This was done by an instrument denominated a moccason awl, which was made of the backspring of an old clasp knife. This awl with its buckhorn handle was an appendage of every shot pouch strap, together with a roll of buckskin for mending the moccasons. This was the labor of almost every evening. They were sewed together and patched with deer skin thongs, or whangs, as they were commonly called." Spence Great quote Spence. Thank you. I know I've seen it before, where is it from? It also gives us an idea of the commonality of folding knives with spring backs, and an example of repurposing old or broken tools or gear. |
|
|
|
Post by spence on May 25, 2022 17:44:37 GMT -7
It's from Doddridge.
Spence
|
|
|
|
Post by brokennock on May 25, 2022 18:03:50 GMT -7
🙄 I should have known. I wish I could know where my brain has gone.
|
|
|
|
Post by hawkeyes on May 25, 2022 19:03:42 GMT -7
🙄 I should have known. I wish I could know where my brain has gone. You find yours let me know, I'll have you help find mine. |
|
|
|
Post by artificer on May 25, 2022 19:44:47 GMT -7
That is an interesting question Gus. I'm also wondering if a few full or half hides and bends of varying thicknesses thought most likely to be useful would have been brought along by settlers heading west. I would imagine they would be cognizant of the possible/probable need for repairs to leather items.Yes, me as well. Of course since there was a variety of economic status in the setters, I would not want to make a blanket statement that everyone could afford to bring various pieces of leather with them, since there were so many other items they would need more. Also, it seems it was much more common to go barefoot in summer, so if they could afford to bring leather, I'm thinking harness leather that in a pinch could be used for shoe/boot soles/heels, as they wore out faster than uppers. Further, it seems moccasins turned out to be footwear of choice on the frontier for many people who could not afford or didn't have the tools/skills to make boots/shoes. There were also itinerant tinkerers/tradesmen in the period, who did needed repairs outside the larger towns/cities, but I don't know how close they came to the frontier. I guess along with this would be the question were Shot Pouches common or available items for trade on the frontier? Gus |
|
