RyanAK
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Once scalped…
Posts: 973
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Post by RyanAK on Apr 10, 2023 16:58:26 GMT -7
Funny. I was just chatting with paranger off-forum and mentioned something like this. I could hang out my shingle. Clothing altered for trade items. See Gregory Thimblehead at the Sign of the Bleeding Finger. Send me one of your coats and I’ll spiff it up!
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Post by brokennock on Apr 11, 2023 1:33:05 GMT -7
Funny. I was just chatting with paranger off-forum and mentioned something like this. I could hang out my shingle. Clothing altered for trade items. See Gregory Thimblehead at the Sign of the Bleeding Finger. Send me one of your coats and I’ll spiff it up! 🤣 🤣 🤣 "Gregory Thimblehead at the Sign of the Bleeding Finger." 😆 🤣 Thanks. I might take you up on that.
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RyanAK
City-dweller
Once scalped…
Posts: 973
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Post by RyanAK on Apr 11, 2023 5:00:08 GMT -7
Funny. I was just chatting with paranger off-forum and mentioned something like this. I could hang out my shingle. Clothing altered for trade items. See Gregory Thimblehead at the Sign of the Bleeding Finger. Send me one of your coats and I’ll spiff it up! 🤣 🤣 🤣 "Gregory Thimblehead at the Sign of the Bleeding Finger." 😆 🤣 Thanks. I might take you up on that. Send a PM or email, brother.
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RyanAK
City-dweller
Once scalped…
Posts: 973
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Post by RyanAK on Apr 12, 2023 8:27:52 GMT -7
I just started to look at a sleeved 1750s waistcoat that I picked up for $25 and formulate a plan. While a much simpler garment than the frock I'm working on, some of the alterations will be a bit more challenging due to the modern construction methods used by Townsend. Small things like the pocket flaps being sewn through both the garment and the lining fabric add steps to the work. Luckily only 9 small buttons and buttonholes to work. The simple plan of buttons, buttonholes, interfacing, size alteration and a quarter lining will give me a versatile garment in a sleeved waistcoat/jacket that should do for 1750s through the early 1770s. Now... which buttons...
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Post by spence on Apr 12, 2023 21:07:50 GMT -7
This frock coat was auctioned several years ago. The auction-house writeup might contain some useful information for your files. Pictures follow. RARE 18TH CENTURY MAN'S WOOL FROCK COAT c.1740-1770 Featured in this auction is an outstanding example of an original 18th century gentleman’s wool frock coat. This is probably one of the most interesting garments we have ever offered on ebay and certainly one of the rarest. Men’s frock coats from this era are few and far between but generally when they are encountered are of the fancy, embroidered variety produced in Europe in the later part of the 18th century. This coat is just the opposite, it is plain and almost austere in design yet is most elegantly constructed with the finest craftsmanship of the period; it is of course entirely hand sewn with both silk and linen threads. The outer body is a fine plain weave black broadcloth, the interior is fully lined in a very stout natural linen. The facings and the tail openings are fully lined in a dark purple twill weave wool which has been applied over the linen lining. The coat body follows the design of the early 18th century, featuring a long, straight cut down the front with very full, pleated skirts; it also has cloth covered buttons going all the way down the front of the coat, a common feature until about the 1740s or 1750s. Both pockets are functional and feature a most interesting scalloped flap of which only the center button is functional; let us also note at this time that only some of the buttonholes down the front are functional, 2 at the collar and 3 at the waist, the rest are decorative. There are two rows of these decorative buttonholes down back center of the coat as well as seen in our photos. Sleeves are fairly fitted and are finished with a turn up cuff that stands about 5 1/2 inches tall; the inside of the cuff is lined in the dark purple wool, a rather interesting touch. The condition of this coat we will rate as excellent, it certainly shows its age but has been well stored and shows only light use. There are some scattered light brown spots on the outer wool body, none of these being very large; there are also a few minor moth nips, again none being very large. The interior is yellowed with age and also exhibits some scattered brown stains; the purple wool facings have a moderate amount of moth damage which is evenly scattered in all areas and can be seen in our photos. The coat is not torn or falling apart at the seams and is actually a dark black color which we were forced to lighten in the photos in order to show the many details more clearly. This coat has been examined by a number of early clothing collectors and many feel that it possibly a transitional piece dating somewhere between the 1750s and the1770s, however no two opinions are exact; the coat certainly exhibits some very early styling and it is possible that it may date earlier than this. There is a painting that we recently saw of Benjamin Franklin wearing a black frock very similar to this with slightly larger cuffs, this was dated from the 1740s. This coat was said to have been purchased in the Chapel Hill, North Carolina region and was the property for many years of a prominent Upstate, NY collector of colonial Americana. Several years ago it was auctioned by the Cottone Auction Gallery of NY and passed through several collectors before it came to us; we can provide some information about its former owner and the auction that it came from but there is no written provenance regarding the family history of the coat; we do guarantee that it is an original 18th garment and as described in this listing. If you would like additional photos or have specific questions please contact us. In today's world you can't even believe what you see. Spence
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RyanAK
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Post by RyanAK on Apr 13, 2023 5:40:54 GMT -7
Oh, man. That coat is just wonderful. Thank you for sharing, Spence. I do wish there were more and better photos... tough to count threads without good pics! "In today's world you can't even believe what you see. Spence" Not sure what you're implying here, friend.
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Post by spence on Apr 13, 2023 8:26:57 GMT -7
"In today's world you can't even believe what you see. Not sure what you're implying here, friend. Nothing complicated. That "brown" coat has been digitally edited to be so, it's actually dark black. You only learn that in the fine print. I only have one other photo. I'll post it, and maybe you can explain what it is. Spence
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Post by spence on Apr 13, 2023 8:30:23 GMT -7
My only other photo: Spence
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RyanAK
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Post by RyanAK on Apr 13, 2023 9:15:05 GMT -7
Those are bar tacks at the center back seam. They're used to strengthen where the split skirts and the seamed back join, so the back seam doesn't open up. I actually just completed one a few minutes ago on this sleeved waistcoat I'm fooling with.
On either side of the bar tacks are decorative, non-functional buttonholes. Very fine needle work. According to the text and per the photo of the coat back, there are a row of these paired buttonholes down the skirt from waist to hem. That's a fairly early feature as well, and with other items of note on the coat, I'd place it solidly in the 1740s.
Such a great find!
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Post by artificer on Apr 13, 2023 10:07:43 GMT -7
I've been interested for a very long time in finding out how period leather goods were sewn, though not just for authenticity in making repro's. I looking to see not only differences in the way they sewed things, but also if there was a purpose to make the construction stronger or last longer, etc.
This thread got me to wondering if some of the techniques used to construct original clothing, were also done to make things last longer and/or turn out a better product?
Gus
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RyanAK
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Once scalped…
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Post by RyanAK on Apr 13, 2023 12:25:58 GMT -7
I've been interested for a very long time in finding out how period leather goods were sewn, though not just for authenticity in making repro's. I looking to see not only differences in the way they sewed things, but also if there was a purpose to make the construction stronger or last longer, etc. This thread got me to wondering if some of the techniques used to construct original clothing, were also done to make things last longer and/or turn out a better product? Gus I'm finding as I research and do this stuff that the construction methods are pretty bomb proof. For example... most "heavy service" coats had the front buttons mounted by placing the shank of the button through the coat fabric and running a piece of tape through the shanks inside the coat. The tape was then tack stitched to the coat face to make an extremely durable attachment. Much more so than thread alone. This is very often done on regimentals. Shirts... are very durable because of the flat felled seams. But then, there's things like the coat a few pages back. That coat was unlined and the raw edges of the linen were simply whipped to mostly keep the material in the seam allowance from unraveling. The inside of a coat isn't seen in polite company, so... Economy of Making.
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Post by artificer on Apr 13, 2023 19:11:28 GMT -7
I'm going to try to not make the huge goof up I did on grammar in this post, as I did on my last. My apology to the forum.
Very interesting about the way button shanks went through the material on heavy coats and held in place by a tacked tape. I imagine the holes for the button shanks were "button holed" or were wrapped with thread to reinforce them from the material unraveling? Reminds me of the way we got our Marine Dress Blues Blouse "button holed" in the modern Marine Corps so the buttons could be removed before laundering. That way expensive anodized buttons were not damaged in laundering.
I hope I'm not taking this thread too far off subject, but this leads me to more questions on cloth covered buttons. I'm wondering if they made up spare cloth covered buttons when the coats and waistcoats were made or at least if they purchased a little extra cloth for replacement buttons? I imagine the cloth on at least the main buttons could/would be worn/frayed or soiled and requiring replacement during the service life of the coat? I'm not sure how they cleaned their coats/waist coats and what that might do to wear cloth covered buttons?
I'm sort of thinking of the way they used thread buttons on shirts, that would better stand up to period laundering techniques?
Gus
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RyanAK
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Once scalped…
Posts: 973
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Post by RyanAK on Apr 14, 2023 5:54:32 GMT -7
I'm going to try to not make the huge goof up I did on grammar in this post, as I did on my last. My apology to the forum. Very interesting about the way button shanks went through the material on heavy coats and held in place by a tacked tape. I imagine the holes for the button shanks were "button holed" or were wrapped with thread to reinforce them from the material unraveling? Reminds me of the way we got our Marine Dress Blues Blouse "button holed" in the modern Marine Corps so the buttons could be removed before laundering. That way expensive anodized buttons were not damaged in laundering. I hope I'm not taking this thread too far off subject, but this leads me to more questions on cloth covered buttons. I'm wondering if they made up spare cloth covered buttons when the coats and waistcoats were made or at least if they purchased a little extra cloth for replacement buttons? I imagine the cloth on at least the main buttons could/would be worn/frayed or soiled and requiring replacement during the service life of the coat? I'm not sure how they cleaned their coats/waist coats and what that might do to wear cloth covered buttons? I'm sort of thinking of the way they used thread buttons on shirts, that would better stand up to period laundering techniques? Gus As far as I can tell, the tape-attached buttons were only used on broadcloth coats and broadcloth won't unravel. I don't recall seeing a buttonhole stitch around where the shank goes through the material... the shank - thinner on period buttons than what is on a lot of modern reproductions - was simply slipped between the fibers of the fabric, sometimes with the assistance of a bone awl. Good question regarding extra buttons or extra cloth. The way I was able to cover my button molds was by asking my tailor for the extra fabric from the yardage used to create the coat. Also to note... molds could be bone, horn or wood. If a garment were to be laundered, such as my linen coat, horn (for dark fabric) or bone (for light fabric) would be used because they will tolerate washing. On materials like broadcloth, silk or worsteds, wood molds were often used. Ditto for 'deathshead' buttons. One thing that's important to remember is that our idea of 'clean' is far different than what was considered pre-WWII. We launder clothing FAR more than prior eras ever did. I haven't looked closely at 18c. laundering practices, but from what I can gather, laundry was mostly for items that were touching skin, such as shirts, shifts, etc. Hence the durable way those garments were constructed, including thread buttons.
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Post by artificer on Apr 14, 2023 6:19:31 GMT -7
I'm thinking during the summer, that sweat would have gone right through the shirt and at least soaked a waistcoat. Consider during the period that one was considered "naked" if they did not have at least a waistcoat on, unless they were working as laborers.
I don't think it would have taken long before a sweat soaked waistcoat would have been quite objectionable even to them in the period.
I also don't know much about period laundering techniques, but I imagine they would have used some kind of soap to wash their clothing?
Gus
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Post by spence on Apr 14, 2023 7:33:18 GMT -7
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